Making choices...

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Henro

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Maybe I'm missing something. But if I have a business, should I not be able to decide if I want to take a job or not? EVEN if I publish my prices?

So I kind of have a problem with people thinking that they should force me to do something I don't want to do, even if they are willing to pay my normal charges.

What the heck am I missing here?
 

Biker1mike

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Depends on why you do not want to do the work. If your refusal is based on race, religion, etc. you will have issues.
 

Fordtech86

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Depends on why you do not want to do the work. If your refusal is based on race, religion, etc. you will have issues.
I refuse jobs because some of my patients don’t identify as Fords or Lincoln’s😜

I have the ability to treat them, I choose not to 🤣
 

motionclone

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Maybe I'm missing something. But if I have a business, should I not be able to decide if I want to take a job or not? EVEN if I publish my prices?

So I kind of have a problem with people thinking that they should force me to do something I don't want to do, even if they are willing to pay my normal charges.

What the heck am I missing here?
What are you on about?
 

D2Cat

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Do you remember a few years back the bakery had to bake a cafe for a couple when the shop owner disagreed with the potential customer's beliefs?

 
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Henro

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What are you on about?
Doesn’t matter. Simple question.

If a person is running a business in a capitalistic society, should he be forced to do something he chooses not to do?

I don’t think so…but curious what others think. The reasons used to rationalize such things just confuse the issue.

If I have a landscape business should I have to cut a person‘s grass regardless if if I decide not to for whatever reason?

My view is no, let someone else do it.

Seems like a simple question.
 

motionclone

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If I have a landscape business should I have to cut a person‘s grass regardless if if I decide not to for whatever reason?
Depends on if you have a contract obligating you to or not
 

The Evil Twin

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Do you have too much work right now? Need special equipment for the task? Never performed that task before? Yes, you can refuse it. We do all the time. Hell, we refuse to bid on jobs because we know the customer just wants a number to compare and has no intention of hiring anyone other than their "preferred contractor".
Now if you don't want the job because the guy is white.... well you're outta luck.
Do you remember a few years back the bakery had to bake a cafe for a couple when the shop owner disagreed with the potential customer's beliefs?

$500 well spent!
 

motionclone

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Maybe I'm missing something. But if I have a business, should I not be able to decide if I want to take a job or not? EVEN if I publish my prices?

So I kind of have a problem with people thinking that they should force me to do something I don't want to do, even if they are willing to pay my normal charges.

What the heck am I missing here?
soooo. Why are you asking these questions? I have an idea
 
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GreensvilleJay

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You can refuse to do work for anybody, the 'trick' is in HOW and WHAT you say as to WHY you won't !!

The bakery bs is a good example.
I think they said 'sorry, we don't make cakes for queers' or something similar...
THAT was a HUGE mistake....goes against 'freedoms or something....'
SHOULD have said 'sorry, we're really booked up , I don't think we can do it for (3 months ) or some time past their date.

Now if for some unknown reason you do get stuck doing the job, simply do it as a 'fill in', telling them 'when I get some free time, I'll get to it, might be several months, I do have priority clients and sometime emergency jobs that have to be done first, really can't promise a 'finish date'. Be sure this is all written into the contract you write up. Check other contracts...they have clauses for floods, fires, war, riots , etc. ADD those as well.....
 
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NCL4701

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Used to be the answer was you could refuse to do business with any potential customer for any reason or no reason. Problem with that was some businesses decided some potential customers had skin tones or ethnic origins or religious beliefs that made them unworthy of service. At least in the U.S. we decided as a society that such discrimination was unacceptable in a business that holds itself out as being open to the public (such as the Woolworth’s lunch counter in Greensboro, NC back in the 1960’s).

There were and are some exceptions, most obviously religious organizations. There is some recognition that a Christian church that follows strict Biblical doctrine doesn’t have to conduct a same sex marriage because that is antithetical to their doctrine.

However, it gets a bit fuzzy when there is a situation such as the cake for the same sex wedding being ordered from an open to the public bakery owned and operated by person or persons whose beliefs prohibit them from voluntarily participating in or in any way supporting same sex marriage.

Many, many businesses that don’t have set pricing for set things (like your landscaping business example where you’d be quoting jobs) are able to somewhat get around this by pricing themselves out of the job. That can be a bit dicey if there’s a pattern of premium being attached to every quote for (black, white, Latino, foreign, homosexual, etc.).

Even a business such as the bakery can refuse business, but it can’t be for reasons that constitute illegal discriminatory reasons. The bakery (in the case I recall) refused service because it was a same sex couple. If they had refused service because that person hadn’t paid for a prior job, they legitimately couldn’t meet the required timeline, or some other legitimate reason that didn’t constitute illegal discrimination they would have been fine. It’s really not that hard to come up with something if you try hard enough so long as you don’t make it too obvious.

So yeah, I kind of agree a private business should be able to do business or not do business with anyone at their discretion, but like many other things, that discretion was once in place, it was abused, and it was limited.

And yes, I’m just barely old enough to remember when many buildings here, including most government buildings, had four types of bathrooms: white men, white women, black men, black women. That was two too many.
 
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SAR Tracker

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Doesn’t matter. Simple question.
If a person is running a business in a capitalistic society, ...
In a Capitalistic society, yes. In today's litigious society, probably not, unfortunately.
 
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D2Cat

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Used to be the answer was you could refuse to do business with any potential customer for any reason or no reason. Problem with that was some businesses decided some potential customers had skin tones or ethnic origins or religious beliefs that made them unworthy of service. At least in the U.S. we decided as a society that such discrimination was unacceptable in a business that holds itself out as being open to the public (such as the Woolworth’s lunch counter in Greensboro, NC back in the 1960’s).

There were and are some exceptions, most obviously religious organizations. There is some recognition that a Christian church that follows strict Biblical doctrine doesn’t have to conduct a same sex marriage because that is antithetical to their doctrine.

However, it gets a bit fuzzy when there is a situation such as the cake for the same sex wedding being ordered from an open to the public bakery owned and operated by person or persons whose beliefs prohibit them from voluntarily participating in or in any way supporting same sex marriage.

Many, many businesses that don’t have set pricing for set things (like your landscaping business example where you’d be quoting jobs) are able to somewhat get around this by pricing themselves out of the job. That can be a bit dicey if there’s a pattern of premium being attached to every quote for (black, white, Latino, foreign, homosexual, etc.).

Even a business such as the bakery can refuse business, but it can’t be for reasons that constitute illegal discriminatory reasons. The bakery (in the case I recall) refused service because it was a same sex couple. If they had refused service because that person hadn’t paid for a prior job, they legitimately couldn’t meet the required timeline, or some other legitimate reason that didn’t constitute illegal discrimination they would have been fine. It’s really not that hard to come up with something if you try hard enough so long as you don’t make it too obvious.

So yeah, I kind of agree a private business should be able to do business or not do business with anyone at their discretion, but like many other things, that discretion was once in place, it was abused, and it was limited.

And yes, I’m just barely old enough to remember when many buildings here, including most government buildings, had four types of bathrooms: white men, white women, black men, black women. That was two too many.
Now days that is three too many!!! ;) ;)
 
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GreensvilleJay

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they won !! that's GREAT news ( I hadn't seen that.....CNN 'news' is questionable)

still don't know ,from them, if that Hawaii volcano has split the island in half yet either.....
though I suspect Mother Nature WILL win .
 
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NCL4701

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At risk of again being accused of not using a “news source”…. The bakery ultimately won the case due to a SCOTUS ruling against Colorado:. (I guess Wikipedia is “OK” if you agree with it.)

Yes, the bakery did prevail in the end. However, there was quite a long time they were spending much less time and energy running their bakery and otherwise living their lives due to the time and effort dedicated to this case. No telling how much money they (as opposed to their backers) put into defending themselves.

And the case was decided based on Colorado’s anti-discrimination statute in force at the time of the alleged violation. SCOTUS arguably provided some indication how they would approach similar situations but far from providing a safe harbor for businesses nation wide facing similar scenarios.

The cases of a the owner operator of a business open to the general public refusing to do business with a potential customer due to some moral or religious objection to the potential customer’s lifestyle is still a somewhat gray area of the law. If nothing else the true motive of the business owner is a jury question.

For example, if this same scenario occurred again and one or more of the potential homosexual couple customers was a different race than the shop owner; it would be very easy for the spurned customer to at least get that case to a jury on whether there was a legitimate religious objection as opposed to racist motivations.

Gray areas of law and issues that are fact specific jury questions… personally, I prefer to avoid when possible.
 

fried1765

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they won !! that's GREAT news ( I hadn't seen that.....CNN 'news' is questionable)

still don't know ,from them, if that Hawaii volcano has split the island in half yet either.....
though I suspect Mother Nature WILL win .
CNN news..."is questionable"
I think not!
It is almost always twisted/convoluted!
 
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GeoHorn

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Yes, the bakery did prevail in the end. However, there was quite a long time they were spending much less time and energy running their bakery and otherwise living their lives due to the time and effort dedicated to this case. No telling how much money they (as opposed to their backers) put into defending themselves.
True…but the bakery made their own “freedom of choice” to spend money on a ridiculous lawsuit instead of simply baking a damn cake.

Specialty baked goods are an “art form”….and an artist can lose “creativity” when customers demand a sandhill-crane on top of a cake…. that crane might be pretty ugly…. or might sit on top of a religious icon that others might not appreciate. (“You want two guys on top of the cake instead of a guy/gal…? Ok… I can put one in hospital garb and the other in a casket… … OR… YOU can put whatever you want on the cake, but WE don’t have “two guys” available…. sorry.”)

A large handful of harmless salt or alum in “specialty cake” recipies. could have been a lot cheaper and made the point… and probably reduced future requests from a particular line of customers.

A missed deadline might also suffice. One can choose one’s battles, ya’ know?
 
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fried1765

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True…but the bakery made their own “freedom of choice” to spend money on a ridiculous lawsuit instead of simply baking a damn cake.

Specialty baked goods are an “art form”….and an artist can lose “creativity” when customers demand a sandhill-crane on top of a cake…. that crane might be pretty ugly…. or might sit on top of a religious icon that others might not appreciate. (“You want two guys on top of the cake instead of a guy/gal…? Ok… I can put one in hospital garb and the other in a casket… … OR… YOU can put whatever you want on the cake, but WE don’t have “two guys” available…. sorry.”)

One can choose one’s battles, ya’ know?

A large handful of harmless salt or alum in “specialty cake” recipies. could have been a lot cheaper and made the point… and probably reduced future requests from a particular line of customers.
:poop:
 
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