Farmer Revolt? - Right to Repair & JD

TheOldHokie

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At least on our cars and truck, it throws a standard code that is industry wide standard, and there is plenty of information on the webs to self diagnose and repair it.
If only that were true. The only codes that are "industry standard" are the ones defined by OBDII and they are ECM/emissions centric. They are dwarfed by the number of OEM specific codes assigned not just to ECM functions but to all of the other controllers on the vehicle - body controller, transmission controller, stability control system, entertainment controller,, yadda yadda yadda. A generic scan tool can't even see them because they are stored in the vehicle specific controller memory. I have a BMW specific scan tool app that runs on my phone and the last time I scanned my 2007 BMW 3 series it logged 30+ DTC's of which only one - a BMW specific code, was the one causing the MIL to illuminate. Something arcane about an intermittent slow response from the electronic thermostat. I cleared it and the MIL went out but the other codes were still present. Of them the only one of interest was a failure of the right front ride height sensor. Until I ran the scan I had no idea it was not functioning.

Just changing a battery in a modern car can be an exercise in frustration. The intelligent charging system on the BMW has to be programmed when a new battery is installed - they call it "battery registration". You have to enter battery type (AGM/FLA) and AH capacity. That resets the controller's charging profile which changes as the battery ages. If you don't "register" your new battery you run he risk of improper charging and the dreaded "walk home". That's just one of many services that can't be performed without a vehicle specific scan tool and the data for your make and model year. Fortunately BMW has made all of that free to the public but putting together a dealer service center level dedicated PC to running all that the free code will still cost you better part of grand just for the computer and cabling. My little $150 phone app can handle simple tasks like battery registration or a brake fluid purge but it is far from comprehensive.

Dan
 

GeoHorn

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I watched that one earlier today, What stood out for me was all the information the systems gather and send to JD about yields and such. The farmers information is no longer just in his books, but in JD's servers as well. So not only do the systems not allow 3rd party access for repairs, but they gather information for marketing use without compensating the farmers. When your $150K combine just shuts down halfway through harvest on a Friday night with a storm coming and you need to harvest the field before it gets covered in snow, you won't get a tech out for quite some time and just for the tech to show it's $1000, plus hourly, plus diagnostic fees, plus parts, and if parts are not in stock, you a SOL.

Thats the gist of the whole issue right there. At least on our cars and truck, it throws a standard code that is industry wide standard, and there is plenty of information on the webs to self diagnose and repair it. The JD software diagnostics wont GIVE a code, but tell the operator to call the dealer for service. That is Bullshiznit of the highest level.
Yes..but there is a corollary in the modern auto systems… For example, if you authorize it in almost all cases….and in the newest vehicles even if you don’t authorize it…. Data is gathered to be used by Insurance underwriters to “rate” your risks and premiums.

For now, most insurance underwriters will offer you a “discount” for “safe” driving habits if you’ll allow them to access your vehicle software support system. For example, if you live in a rural area and never visit the big-city you may be offered a lower premium.
Conversely, if your very-recently-equipped vehicle is activated, your habit of consistently driving 30 in 20 mph school-zones and 75-80 on the hwy …as well as your “route chosen” …. will be observed.
If you are in an accident…the sim-card in your vehicle may be accessed by the police, the insurer, and the courts to determine culpability or place blame.

When I bought my 2012 Pickup in Jan ‘13 it was equipped with a “theft-deterrent“ system which would “ping” into the cell-phone-tower network allow me to “track” my vehicle if it moved more than 100 meters…as well as to allow law-enforcement to track a thief. That system was promoted by the dealer as one of the “perks” of buying that truck over other brands/models.
I told the dealer I wasn’t interested in that and wouldn’t pay the extra ($180-? if I recall correctly).
He next told me “Yes, but if your teenage daughter or wife is out where you don’t want her you’ll be able to know about it.”
I told ”Mo”….that I didn’t need to worry about untrustworthy women family members in my family. (I noticed He had a Persian-prayer-rug along the Eastern wall of his office.… Perhaps his attitude toward trustworthiness of women was different than mine.)

Anyway… I bought the truck and got it home (300 miles South) …and decided that if I were a dealer worried about needing to re-possess a financed-vehicle …or one that had moved off my dealership-lot… perhaps getting a “ping” about its’ location might be useful…. But I didn’t like the idea of anyone tracking me in my own vehicle.
So I called the device-mfr’r and asked them for information on how to disable it. (Contact info was in the vehicle owners’ packet.) The device mfr’r representative told me in Firm Tones that the device was permanent, and not to be tampered with…. and refused to give me information on it. (The vehicle instruction-pkg also described how to activate the GPS On-Star type of customer-service feature of the device by pressing the small cell-phone-icon button beside the steering-column.)
I asked his name and he gave it…. and I then told the mfr’r-representative that “I am the OWNER of this vehicle.… I paid FULL price for this vehicle…including ownership of the device… and I wanted to have the entire serivce/technology/repair info package on the device. He told me it would require a ”properly trained and equipped electronics-technician” to make any repairs or alterations and that could only be accessed back thru the dealership and that if I tampered with it my vehicle would become disabled and require a tow-truck to the dealership.

I then told him I was an aircraft avionics technician… (a lie) … and I fully understand such devices and unless he wished his company sued and himself personally NAMED in the suit that he should provide me with the repair/service package on the device.

He folded…and told me the device was hidden beneath the glareshield, just above the steering column, behind the instrument cluster…and emailed me the PDF file containing the installation instructions.

If you’re still reading this long-winded story…. I got upside-down and using a mirror found the GPS antenna and little “black box” that drove the system and followed its wiring-harness down to the OBDII-reader plug…where it replaced the OEM reader-plug …and had the OEM-reader-plug inserted into the device-harness. (They had simply stuck the device reader-plug into the OEM bracket and then plugged the OEM plug in-series to the device harness.) It was a simple “plug and play” installation…just in a hidden area.
I removed that device completely…the OBDII plug, harness, black-box, and GPS/Cell antenna…and threw it in the trash…. and re-installed the factory OBDII plug by snapping it back into it’s original factory bracket just-beneath the dash.

Just another example of what’s happening in the world these days.
 
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ACDII

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Forescan is an open source software that allows one to hack into many automotive systems including all modules. I used it to enable the Lincoln Modules on my F150, such as autofold mirrors, Lock the shifter if no key, DRL and a host of other items, including the Sync screens wall paper and control buttons. ECM Codes for ODBII was what I was referring to which covers a lot of codes that are standerized. I have some set on my F350 due to a bad glow plug and when the batteries went soft from the cold weather and set a TCM code for low voltage, both are standard codes.
 
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Nicksacco

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Big Data, Data Mining, Analytics, Tracking, has only gotten more refined over the years. It might be difficult to pinpoint when we all were first tracked, but some examples are cell phones, (location pinging off cell towers), Smartphones (they send lots of data all the time), GPS in cars, Targeted ads (from browser cookies, etc), "Loyalty cards" from grocery stores, and Credit Cards (buying habits), Our PCs themselves, IOT (Internet of Things - such as home security systems, NEST thermostats, wireless cameras all contribute.

It's hard not to be tracked and if someone were really interested, paint a picture of your entire life routine based upon these things. We sort of accepted it in the name of "convenience".

But then, things got interesting when AI (artificial Intelligence) came into vogue bringing predictive analysis, Facial recognition ( like on your Cellphone - if you have that). It's quite a mix of possibilities. Unfortunately with everything good, or convenient - someone is there to make a buck from it, or do you harm and it's not always with your knowledge or consent.

I think I'll keep my 2003 Trailblazer, and fuhgetabout the fancyschmancy stuff! I'm already tracked enough!
 

GreensvilleJay

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Had a good read of GH's post (and yes I AM an Avionics tech). got cuious about the car insurance ploy to sayve big with a little device. it's a data scanner/logger/gps/cell tower that connects to your OBDII connector. Went to their website for 'details', actuall READ the 'Terms of Use'. If you agree(blindly click OK), you give them permission to access and distribute any/all information to anyone in the World! Scary pasrt was them KNOWING when you leave your house,exact route you take, stops at coffee shops, etc. OH yeah...speeding in the school zone !!!, they KNOW that too. As well as hammering on the brakes at an intersection and NOT reporting the accident, oopsy, caught you !! $$$$$ !!!!!
 
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Daren Todd

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My brother tried the reduced rates from the insurance company if you put their device in your vehicle.

Brother got a $40 drop in premiums per month for his driving habits.

His wife got a $150 per month increase on her premiums do to her driving habits 😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂😂

When it came time to renew, they switched companies and won't get one of those devices put into their vehicle again 😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣
 
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TheOldHokie

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My brother tried the reduced rates from the insurance company if you put their device in your vehicle.

Brother got a $40 drop in premiums per month for his driving habits.

His wife got a $150 per month increase on her premiums do to her driving habits 😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂😂

When it came time to renew, they switched companies and won't get one of those devices put into their vehicle again 😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣
I am afraid I would have the same result o_O

Dan
 

Gb540

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OH yeah...speeding in the school zone !!!, they KNOW that too. As well as hammering on the brakes at an intersection and NOT reporting the accident, oopsy, caught you !! $$$$$ !!!!!
My workplace fleet has GPS tracking, and they monitor all of that. Now, most of our drivers are pretty darned good and don't need a babysitter looking over their shoulders. But there's that fraction percent who ruin it for everyone.

For the original discussion, ALL the makes need to take a new look at reliability. "Call dealer" doesn't help when you have 100 acres of hay to put up today. Or when your rig just shut down in a highway intersection with traffic blocked (that recently happened here). If something big broke, it broke. But if a machine can be field repaired, or limped for a day or even 100 feet, that should be made possible.
 

lugbolt

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the government is at the root of all of it

they don't want you to have access to the ecu

so, if it's saying there's trouble (for instance, dpf soot level 4, i forget what that P code is), they don't want you to be able to just clear it and keep working. Doing that doesn't equate to "clean air".

they want dealers aka factory trained technicians, and they are 'factory' trained by people who have to study/learn the laws and regulations, to work on them-and them only

hence, proprietary software and to an extent hardware too, that YOU (consumer) can't (or shouldn't?) work on

so if you don't like it you have two choices. Use a beater that ain't got it, and when that's wore out and parts are nla, then what do you do, go buy another one that might break tomorrow, or might already be broke, that you can't get no parts for? So if that's the case, you're almost forced into it. Choice #2 is to comply and gripe about it. I hear that the squeaky wheel gets the grease.
 

ACDII

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Big Data, Data Mining, Analytics, Tracking, has only gotten more refined over the years. It might be difficult to pinpoint when we all were first tracked, but some examples are cell phones, (location pinging off cell towers), Smartphones (they send lots of data all the time), GPS in cars, Targeted ads (from browser cookies, etc), "Loyalty cards" from grocery stores, and Credit Cards (buying habits), Our PCs themselves, IOT (Internet of Things - such as home security systems, NEST thermostats, wireless cameras all contribute.

It's hard not to be tracked and if someone were really interested, paint a picture of your entire life routine based upon these things. We sort of accepted it in the name of "convenience".

But then, things got interesting when AI (artificial Intelligence) came into vogue bringing predictive analysis, Facial recognition ( like on your Cellphone - if you have that). It's quite a mix of possibilities. Unfortunately with everything good, or convenient - someone is there to make a buck from it, or do you harm and it's not always with your knowledge or consent.

I think I'll keep my 2003 Trailblazer, and fuhgetabout the fancyschmancy stuff! I'm already tracked enough!

If you have an iPhone, make sure you update it to 15.3 Right Now! Safari has a bug that is allowing your google account, if you have one, to be fully exposed to every site you visit as well as other sites linked. Thankfully I never logged into Google on anything other than my two laptops that have Norton protection.

Those insurance trackers are becoming the norm. I currently have Gieco and went looking for insurance quotes for farm/home and auto for when I purchase the new Bota. The only way that they could match Geico is if I used one of the trackers. No thanks, not if there is no savings involved, Sorry, Bye.

The EPA came down HARD on diesel the past two years. Any company that made tunes and or sold DPF replacement pipes, or EGR bypass kits, anything that could "delete" a Diesel, were hit with huge fines, and the EPA has all their records of who they sold to. What this means is if you have a deleted truck, and for some reason the PCM blows, and you either do not have the original tuner, or cannot retrieve the tune to unlock the tuner, you are completely, positively SCREWED! You have to put everything back on the truck in order to use the new PCM, and if you do not have what was removed, like I don't since the PO deleted it, sold it to the dealer and I bought it not knowing it was fully deleted, will cost at least $4,000 in parts. If the delete was done cleanly that is. If it was a hack job, it can cost even more.

If they ever decide to do emissions testing in my county, I will be royally screwed. Had I known it was a full delete, and not just tuned, I would not have bought the truck. I had tuned my gas truck, but that was just a power tune, so thought nothing of the tuner on the dash when I test drove it. It wasn't until a week or so later when I was under the truck looking at the body mounts chasing down a clunk that I noticed that the truck had a 5" pipe all the way back and then it dawned on me that 2012 had the big ugly DPF on it. Thats when the lightbulb went on, OH, Deleted. Then a year later find out that the EPA came down hard on Tuners and was like S**T.
 
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NHSleddog

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If you have an iPhone, make sure you update it to 15.3 Right Now! Safari has a bug that is allowing your google account, if you have one, to be fully exposed to every site you visit as well as other sites linked. Thankfully I never logged into Google on anything other than my two laptops that have Norton protection.

Those insurance trackers are becoming the norm. I currently have Gieco and went looking for insurance quotes for farm/home and auto for when I purchase the new Bota. The only way that they could match Geico is if I used one of the trackers. No thanks, not if there is no savings involved, Sorry, Bye.

The EPA came down HARD on diesel the past two years. Any company that made tunes and or sold DPF replacement pipes, or EGR bypass kits, anything that could "delete" a Diesel, were hit with huge fines, and the EPA has all their records of who they sold to. What this means is if you have a deleted truck, and for some reason the PCM blows, and you either do not have the original tuner, or cannot retrieve the tune to unlock the tuner, you are completely, positively SCREWED! You have to put everything back on the truck in order to use the new PCM, and if you do not have what was removed, like I don't since the PO deleted it, sold it to the dealer and I bought it not knowing it was fully deleted, will cost at least $4,000 in parts. If the delete was done cleanly that is. If it was a hack job, it can cost even more.

If they ever decide to do emissions testing in my county, I will be royally screwed. Had I known it was a full delete, and not just tuned, I would not have bought the truck. I had tuned my gas truck, but that was just a power tune, so thought nothing of the tuner on the dash when I test drove it. It wasn't until a week or so later when I was under the truck looking at the body mounts chasing down a clunk that I noticed that the truck had a 5" pipe all the way back and then it dawned on me that 2012 had the big ugly DPF on it. Thats when the lightbulb went on, OH, Deleted. Then a year later find out that the EPA came down hard on Tuners and was like S**T.
Delete kits are available anywhere. Google Diesel delete kit. I can get one for my new F350 from over a dozen places.

Replacing a deleted system should not cost a penny more than replacing a broken down clogged up system. It will actually be much much less if you uninstalled everything right to begin with. If you deleted an already clogged up broken DPF system then it shouldn't cost any more but it will cost the same THOUSANDS.
 

ACDII

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Delete kits are available anywhere. Google Diesel delete kit. I can get one for my new F350 from over a dozen places.

Replacing a deleted system should not cost a penny more than replacing a broken down clogged up system. It will actually be much much less if you uninstalled everything right to begin with. If you deleted an already clogged up broken DPF system then it shouldn't cost any more but it will cost the same THOUSANDS.

You can delete all the parts, but you need someone to tune it, and the tuners are the ones hit the hardest by EPA I know a couple tuners, and they wont touch the tune for a deleted diesel. When the truck is deleted, all sensor and harnesses are also removed, there are a LOT more parts involved than just replacing a DPF or EGR. The system from the turbo back was replaced, and not compatible with a DPF. All the harnesses were removed. The entire EGR system was removed, including the cooling system. Instead of a $2K DPF, its a $4K full system and a $2K EGR system, and most likely a DEF system replacement, $1K, just for parts! If you do your own delete and kept all the parts, thats one thing, but as a second owner post delete, it is a huge expense to put all the EPA crap back on. I was quoted $8500 to put the full system back on.
 

ctfjr

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<Volkswagen and Chrysler execs have entered the chat> We agree with this statement. :sneaky:
Here, fixed it for you. I had a 2013 Jeep diesel that they falsified the emissions data on. My settlement unfortunately wasn't as large as the Volkswagon one.
 
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Nicksacco

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I wasn't aware of any of this since I don't have a diesel vehicle.
I looked at some of the diesel delete stuff and it's pretty cool.
Thanks @ACDII and @NHSleddog.
We are currently living in a gov't overreach predicament.
 
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