B2650 suddenly won't start

BetterThanAShovel

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B2650, BH77, SG0660 grapple, pallet forks, Bobcat 60" box blade
Oct 5, 2021
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The good news is that I had JUST finished doing what I needed to get done, and was starting it up to put it away...when it wouldn't start.
  • Tractor was running perfectly fine before this, it didn't die on me, I just turned it off.
  • Battery light and low oil pressure lights come on when key set to On. When turned to Start, glowplug light comes on and I can hear the click of the glowplug relay (click happens exactly when the light comes on), but nothing else happens. No other sounds occur.
  • Battery is 12.6V
  • Motor has oil
  • Transmission in Neutral, PTO is OFF
  • Sitting in seat...though when I started it up to use today, I just reached over and start it like I often do. So being in the seat has not been a requirement up to now in regards to starting it.
  • Treadle peddle is centered (as seen from the seat). I moved it with my foot and it returns to centered.
  • Visually checked all fuses, they looked good.
I've had no real problems with the tractor up until now, which I'm glad about since I bought it used. About a week ago, I do recall now that a similar thing happened where I went to start it and nothing happened. I looked at the various levers and switches to see if something was set wrong...pull the key all the way out...put it back in, and it started. So I just brushed it off as maybe the electrics had gotten into a weird state.

So based on my researching, this seems to me to most likely be either a starter (though if this starter is like all other starters, then I can't hear the solenoid engage either) or more likely a safety switch somewhere. Here are the two things I think I need help with:
  1. Where are those switches?? I know there's one for the PTO and for the treadle peddle, and I understand there's one for the seat...but looking under my seat (it's the kind that does the fancy 180 deg turn when using the backhoe) I cannot see ANY wires anywhere. I can't seem to find a good reference online for where the safety switches might be.
  2. Besides feeling sad seeing my tractor just sitting outside, if I'm going to have to crawl around under it, I'd REALLY rather do that in the garage. I'm sure we can tow it with my 4 wheeler, but the problem is I let the front loader/pallet forks bleed down so it's on the ground now. If I pull the loader lever back (as in, "raise") and apply some leverage to the loader, will it lift up so I can put the loader lever in neutral and it'll stay there? Then I can tow it without it scraping everything on its way to the garage.
Thanks for the help, I love these forums.

Rob
 

hagrid

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K1600GTL, ZX-14R
Jun 11, 2018
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If I pull the loader lever back (as in, "raise") and apply some leverage to the loader, will it lift up so I can put the loader lever in neutral and it'll stay there?
Not so much. The side of the cylinder that would ordinarily be fed with pressurized fluid from the pump will now be trying to suck fluid through the pump.

You can crack the lines at the cylinders to accomplish what you're proposing but you'll have to tie the bucket up. Once you let air in it may not hold the FEL up indefinitely.
 

Henro

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May 24, 2019
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Sure sounds like a safety interlock issue.

Hold the key in the start position and move all the levers, and see if anything happens. Also, you probably have a seat switch in the circuit. This includes moving the hst pedal.

Goal is to hopefully find the switch that is causing the problem, by cycling it with movements of whatever activates a particular switch.

If this does not work, time to get an electrical diagram and do some troubleshooting.
 
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GreensvilleJay

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BX23-S
Apr 2, 2019
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Once the loader/bucket is high enough , use a couple ratchet straps between loader frame and the ROPS. TWO, just in case 1 magically lets go. Never, ever assume 'hydraulics' will keep the bucket up.
The other way is to make U-shaped blocks and put them around the ram of the raising cylinders, then lower the loader onto them. These 'wedges' will keep loader from coming down. You'll see fancy red ones on machines for when service is performed and loader frame is up high.
 
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Dave_eng

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M7040, Nuffield 465
Oct 6, 2012
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If your loader valve has a float position, use it when raising the loader manually then move the valve lever back to its normal neutral position and the loader will stay up.

If you do not have a float position, I would still put the lever in the up position and jack the loader up.

I have not seen it necessary to disconnect lines but .............

Dave
 

johnjk

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I second Henro on the safety switches. Get a WSM and find them. Possible one is out of adjustment or the switch contact is a bit dirty and dropping voltage. You can make up some jumpers to jump the switch out for testing and once you find the faulty suspect, replace it. I had similar issues with my B1700 where it was dropping the 12v to the starter solenoid enough that it wouldn’t turn over. I ended up wiring in a relay and running the 12v from that to the starter. Works every time now. Other thing to check is the battery. Do you have a bad cell? Make sure you are getting the voltage you think you are getting
 

dirtydeed

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Dec 8, 2017
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do you not have one of these?

Right side of the backhoe flip seat bracket.

B2650 switch normal position.JPG


and the fix:

B2650 switch fix.JPG
 
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85Hokie

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Sure sounds like a safety interlock issue.

Hold the key in the start position and move all the levers, and see if anything happens. Also, you probably have a seat switch in the circuit. This includes moving the hst pedal.

Goal is to hopefully find the switch that is causing the problem, by cycling it with movements of whatever activates a particular switch.

If this does not work, time to get an electrical diagram and do some troubleshooting.
I was on my BIL B2920 this past weekend ......... dead stick to start ............ I looked around and FINALLY saw the PTO level was bumped the least little bit ........... moved it and started right up
 

FreezinGator

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BX1500 LA181 FEL 48MMM Back blade
Jul 10, 2020
53
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I am not a pro at any of this but I had a similar situation with my tractor and it ended up being a bad battery. I had just started and warmed up my tractor, shut it off to refuel and then it would not re-start. Battery tested at 12.6 but would not start the tractor - lights came on, fuel pump clicked but not enough to start. I put my car battery in it and it started fine and the magneto showed it was charging fine (tested at 14.5 or so). Took the old battery and charged it overnight, it tested fine but when I put it back in it would not start the tractor. I put back in my car battery and it started fine. I replaced the battery and it is all working fine now. The old battery was a tractor supply traveler brand that was a year out of warranty that came with the tractor when I bought it. I replaced it with an Everstart battery with a better warranty which I have had pretty good luck with and didn't cost an arm and a leg... I don't know if that is what is wrong with your tractor, just sharing an experience and letting you know it might be possibility.
 

BetterThanAShovel

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B2650, BH77, SG0660 grapple, pallet forks, Bobcat 60" box blade
Oct 5, 2021
63
44
18
16877
do you not have one of these?

Right side of the backhoe flip seat bracket.

View attachment 77451

and the fix:

View attachment 77452
I saw this picture from my earlier searching for answers, and when I'd gone out, I could NOT find it or anything like it. So I went out just now to take a picture to post saying "See, no seat safety switch!"...and then I saw it. :) I was looking on the left hand side, not the right.

So, I can confirm that the seat fully engages the safety switch. I tried the key with the switch up and down, nothing. I also heard a relay click when the safety switch was engaged and when it was disengaged...so I'd be willing to bet THAT safety switch works.
 

BetterThanAShovel

Member

Equipment
B2650, BH77, SG0660 grapple, pallet forks, Bobcat 60" box blade
Oct 5, 2021
63
44
18
16877
I am not a pro at any of this but I had a similar situation with my tractor and it ended up being a bad battery. I had just started and warmed up my tractor, shut it off to refuel and then it would not re-start. Battery tested at 12.6 but would not start the tractor - lights came on, fuel pump clicked but not enough to start. I put my car battery in it and it started fine and the magneto showed it was charging fine (tested at 14.5 or so). Took the old battery and charged it overnight, it tested fine but when I put it back in it would not start the tractor. I put back in my car battery and it started fine. I replaced the battery and it is all working fine now. The old battery was a tractor supply traveler brand that was a year out of warranty that came with the tractor when I bought it. I replaced it with an Everstart battery with a better warranty which I have had pretty good luck with and didn't cost an arm and a leg... I don't know if that is what is wrong with your tractor, just sharing an experience and letting you know it might be possibility.
Good advice. Before I start poking around for other switches I'll pull up the truck and try a jump start. You're right, just testing at 12.6V when it's not being started doesn't prove much. I do keep a battery tender on the machine so the battery survives the winter...but I still don't know when the battery was purchased.
 

BetterThanAShovel

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Equipment
B2650, BH77, SG0660 grapple, pallet forks, Bobcat 60" box blade
Oct 5, 2021
63
44
18
16877
If your loader valve has a float position, use it when raising the loader manually then move the valve lever back to its normal neutral position and the loader will stay up.

If you do not have a float position, I would still put the lever in the up position and jack the loader up.

I have not seen it necessary to disconnect lines but .............

Dave
Float function...brilliant! Yes, it has one. I'll put it in float and lever the loader arms up and then put it in normal AND secure it to the ROPS. That should be enough to get it into the garage.
 

BetterThanAShovel

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Equipment
B2650, BH77, SG0660 grapple, pallet forks, Bobcat 60" box blade
Oct 5, 2021
63
44
18
16877
I was on my BIL B2920 this past weekend ......... dead stick to start ............ I looked around and FINALLY saw the PTO level was bumped the least little bit ........... moved it and started right up
I've never used the PTO, but you're right, it can still get bumped. I checked that as soon as I was having problems though, and it seemed fine. I then moved it to fully engaged, and then back to off...still nothing.
 

cthomas

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LX2610 HSDC
Jan 1, 2017
135
49
28
La Farge Wi
Have tried jumping the starter with another person in the seat(Be very careful with this method)? Can you locate a WSM for your tractor? I have a LX2610 WSM I can email you(send PM with email) it may be the same or damn close. My tractor starts with no one in the seat so I don't think that is the issue. PTO and HST pedal are definitely wired into starter inhibit relay/ecm. Also during testing/jumping have the HST shifter in neutral with parking brake on(If I was trying to figure this out tractor would be chained to a couple of immoveable objects). I know on my old BX2370 the connectors were open on the terminal end allowing fretting corrosion(Fretting corrosion is the name for a buildup of insulating, oxidized wear debris that can form when there is small amplitude fretting motion between electrical contacts(usually do to water, salt, or fertilizer). The oxidized wear debris can pile up enough at the electrical contact spots that the electrical resistance across the connection increases a lot). Wiggle wires and unplug and replug terminals. Dielectric grease(I use Nyogel 760G which is compatible with all metals including gold and silver. Most commonly used on tin plated terminals.) won't hurt if you have any. HTH"s
 

sheepfarmer

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Nov 14, 2014
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The most likely thing judging from previous B2650 posters, is the treadle pedal not really being in neutral, second most likely is if your coat caught the pto lever when you got off the tractor and nudged it just a bit. Try the trick mentioned above of putting key switch in start, and slowly rocking hst pedal past neutral and see if it tries to fire off. There are some contacts that need to be kept clean. Same with pto. The seat switch is the least likely to be involved. After that it is on to the battery and ground checks mentioned above.
 
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BetterThanAShovel

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B2650, BH77, SG0660 grapple, pallet forks, Bobcat 60" box blade
Oct 5, 2021
63
44
18
16877
Great advice, all of you thanks so much.

So I just tried the jump start from my truck, and no luck.

While in the seat, and with the key turned to start, I cycled the transmission lever through the whole range then put it back into Neutral, I engaged the PTO lever and then disengaged it, and moved the treadle pedal through its full range...the thing never made any sound like trying to start. So I think that might eliminate it being a single safety switch that's only kinda broken. It could still be a completely broken switch, or (cry) TWO safety switches at the same time. But I'm going to say that's REALLY unlikely.

I think I'm down to the starter or non-seat safety switches.

There's some kind of plugin button I can get that bypasses the key and just energizes the starter all by itself, isn't there? That would at least tell me if it's the starter.
 

Dave_eng

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M7040, Nuffield 465
Oct 6, 2012
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Williamstown Ontario Canada
This attached table showing the various safety switches and their affect on engine cranking and engine running may inform you of safety switches you did not even realized were on your B2650.
B2650 test table.jpg

Dave
 
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BetterThanAShovel

Member

Equipment
B2650, BH77, SG0660 grapple, pallet forks, Bobcat 60" box blade
Oct 5, 2021
63
44
18
16877
Have tried jumping the starter with another person in the seat(Be very careful with this method)? Can you locate a WSM for your tractor? I have a LX2610 WSM I can email you(send PM with email) it may be the same or damn close. My tractor starts with no one in the seat so I don't think that is the issue. PTO and HST pedal are definitely wired into starter inhibit relay/ecm. Also during testing/jumping have the HST shifter in neutral with parking brake on(If I was trying to figure this out tractor would be chained to a couple of immoveable objects). I know on my old BX2370 the connectors were open on the terminal end allowing fretting corrosion(Fretting corrosion is the name for a buildup of insulating, oxidized wear debris that can form when there is small amplitude fretting motion between electrical contacts(usually do to water, salt, or fertilizer). The oxidized wear debris can pile up enough at the electrical contact spots that the electrical resistance across the connection increases a lot). Wiggle wires and unplug and replug terminals. Dielectric grease(I use Nyogel 760G which is compatible with all metals including gold and silver. Most commonly used on tin plated terminals.) won't hurt if you have any. HTH"s
That's very generous. I would LOVE to get/buy a WSM for this tractor, I fully want to do the work/repairs on it for anything. I know the LX2610 is kind of the spiritual cousin of the 2650, so I'd love to take a look at it. If things look on the tractor like it says it should look in the manual, then I guess it's right! I'll send you a PM.
 

cthomas

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Equipment
LX2610 HSDC
Jan 1, 2017
135
49
28
La Farge Wi
" I've had no real problems with the tractor up until now, which I'm glad about since I bought it used. About a week ago, I do recall now that a similar thing happened where I went to start it and nothing happened. I looked at the various levers and switches to see if something was set wrong...pull the key all the way out...put it back in, and it started. So I just brushed it off as maybe the electrics had gotten into a weird state. "
Rereading the first post, I wonder if mice chewed the wiring by the ignition switch. I would inspection the back of the switch and wiring closely. If able to reach wiggle it around(wiring).