3 pt will not raise

[Cree Dog]

I have a 2001 BX2200 that I have owned for 16 years.
The 3pt will not raise and it sounds like the hydraulics are not disengaging when the 3pt reaches the top of its travel as it is supposed to. Obviously the mower deck also dose not raise.
It will move forward and backward, just the 3pt and the mover lift will not raise.
FEL is not attached. Oil changes twice a year.
Tried different throttle positions and no change although at mid range it sounds like there is air blowing out of the trans somewhere. Cannot locate it as my hearing is not the best.
It just started doing this last weekend when the kids were mowing.
Bypass for the FEL is connected in its proper place. All filters have either been changed or checked. No oil leaks in the hydraulic system.

Very frustrated. Don't understand what is happening or why.
HELP!

 

[Dave_eng]

I do not know your tractor so the best I can do is give you some issues to reflect upon.

Your tractor has a hydraulic block which provides power for a loader valve which in turn controls a loader.

The WSM shows the hydraulic block configured two possible ways as shown below.

When you say: Bypass for the FEL is connected in its proper place

Are you referring to changes in the above block or something else?

Reading your description of what is happening, my first though is a couple of hoses swapped in their positions.

Does the loader valve come off with the loader or does it stay on the tractor?

The loader valve has a power beyond feature which powers the 3 pt hitch and any rear remotes.

If there are any quick couplings opening and then re-seating them would be a wise step
Looking forward to more information.

Dave

 

[Cree Dog]

I do not know your tractor so the best I can do is give you some issues to reflect upon.

Your tractor has a hydraulic block which provides power for a loader valve which in turn controls a loader.

The WSM shows the hydraulic block configured two possible ways as shown below.

View attachment 59841

When you say: Bypass for the FEL is connected in its proper place

Are you referring to changes in the above block or something else?

Reading your description of what is happening, my first though is a couple of hoses swapped in their positions.

Does the loader valve come off with the loader or does it stay on the tractor?

The loader valve has a power beyond feature which powers the 3 pt hitch and any rear remotes.

View attachment 59842
If there are any quick couplings opening and then re-seating them would be a wise step
Looking forward to more information.

Dave

The loader valve stays with the FEL.
I have the bypass hose in its proper place as it has not changed in 16 years when I remove the FEL.
I had raised one time after the tractor was restarted then it sounded like the valve that allowed fluid to go to the 3pt did not release but, it is on a handle that I move and when I put it in the down position the motor continues to be loaded. I suspect the 3pt load valve but it is a manual application.
Don't understand why when I put it in the down position it does not unload.
I will pour over the diagrams you have here and continue my search for what the issue is.
Thank you for your input.

Chris

 

[Dave_eng]

Check that the feedback rod is in place and not damaged. It is the link from the 3 pt hitch to the 3 pt control valve which should kick the control valve to a neutral position once the lift arms reach full height.

Dave

 

[Cree Dog]

Check that the feedback rod is in place and not damaged. It is the link from the 3 pt hitch to the 3 pt control valve which should kick the control valve to a neutral position once the lift arms reach full height.

View attachment 59867

Dave

That lever is also in place and properly adjusted

Check that the feedback rod is in place and not damaged. It is the link from the 3 pt hitch to the 3 pt control valve which should kick the control valve to a neutral position once the lift arms reach full height.

View attachment 59867

Dave

The feedback rod is in place. I will check the adjustment this morning.

 

[Dave_eng]

That lever is also in place and properly adjusted

The feedback rod is in place. I will check the adjustment this morning.

These instructions may help.

Dave

 

[Cree Dog]

These instructions may help.

View attachment 59891

Dave
I looked at the feedback rod and it is in place and properly adjusted. I have no flow through one of my hydraulic lines leading to the FEL connectors and it is vibrating extremely bad.
I took the control valve off again and blew air through it in all the ports and one of the ports is not letting anything through at all and that port is the one that is vibrating when I attempt to operate the 3pt.
So to recap: It will lift and lower one time after the motor starts at which there is a constant load on the motor meaning that the loader valve is not releasing. Shut off the tractor restart tractor and it will lift and lower only one time again. Now it is not going up at all.
Removed loader valve, removed all valves from loader valve and made sure that there was not dirt in any of the valves. Put all valves back into the loader valve, blew air through all the ports in the loader valve while moving the piston for the 3pt and belly mower lift and air went through all ports except one. I am starting to believe that the K2561-36800 Assembly Valve Priority part is not letting any fluid through.
Now unless there is some kind of valve that is actuated inside the transmission while the Loader valve is actuated that I cannot see, I believe that the valve I am suspecting is the problem.
Also not sure why that line leading to the FEL is vibrating so much unless it is due to a blockage.
PTO's work, and drive forward and backwards work just fine. 3pt does not lift and loads the motor all the time.

CC

 

[Dave_eng]

I strongly suggest you stop!!!!

The vibrating lines suggest you are on the verge of destroying the main pump.

Hydraulics as I have said here many times are not a "Lets try it and see what happens."

Blockages in hydraulic pressure lines almost never occur because the 2,000 psi pressure drives them out.

In your initial post you said:
FEL is not attached.
It just started doing this last weekend when the kids were mowing.
Bypass for the FEL is connected in its proper place

In the above three lines must be the clue.

I think it is time to call a Kubota dealer. The cost for their service will be small compared to the cost of broken parts.

Taking valves apart is never a good idea. Blowing air through them is misleading at best. Your air supply will be around 100 psi while the hydraulic pressures are 20 times greater + getting a part back in the wrong place or dropped is not worth whatever you think you improved or learned.

When the loader is in place, its valve is the critical supply to the rear of the tractor using a function called Power Beyond.

As I told you in my first post I do not know your particular tractor but the basic principles of open center hydraulics do not change from tractor to tractor.

The hydraulic block outlet type is the place where the supply to the rear of the tractor occurs. The changing of covers depending upon an implement like a loader is attached or not is your clue to just how important this outlet block is.

I am not familiar with the FEL bypass you mention. It must take the place of changing outlet block covers.

Because you were not present when all this started, it makes the situation most difficult.

My suggestion to call a dealer is not meant to be a criticism of you or what your kids may have done. At a distance, for me it is impossible to visualize it all but I do not how quickly pumps are destroyed and this is what I want to save you from.

p.s. any chance your loader has a 3rd function valve for a grapple

Dave

 

[Dave_eng]

I continue to think about your situation.

How many hydraulic lines are disconnected when the loader is removed? 2 or 3?

Does the bypass join these 2 or 3 open lines back together?

If there are three lines opened with the loader removal and the bypass only deals with 2 of the 3 hoses.......... recheck the bypass.

Perhaps the bypass was snagged by the kids mowing and replaced in the wrong position.

Dave

 

[Dave_eng]

A good friend gave me some reading material on your loader so I now understand it much better.

A forum member Whitetiger who is currently in the Kubota servicing field recently said the following to a member who was having eratic loader problems:

Replace both the Male and Female coupler tips for the boom lift and lower hoses, then throw away the ones you removed so they do not get reused and cause another problem.
It is not uncommon for the couplers to seat and not let flow through intermittently. Replace the two pairs and be done with the problem.

I am wondering if your bypass hose is suffering from the same failed quick coupler situation and although appearing fully seated are blocked by failing internal hardware. Replace do not try and fix!

Dav

 

[Cree Dog]

I strongly suggest you stop!!!!

The vibrating lines suggest you are on the verge of destroying the main pump.

Hydraulics as I have said here many times are not a "Lets try it and see what happens."

Blockages in hydraulic pressure lines almost never occur because the 2,000 psi pressure drives them out.

In your initial post you said:
FEL is not attached.
It just started doing this last weekend when the kids were mowing.
Bypass for the FEL is connected in its proper place

In the above three lines must be the clue.

I think it is time to call a Kubota dealer. The cost for their service will be small compared to the cost of broken parts.

Taking valves apart is never a good idea. Blowing air through them is misleading at best. Your air supply will be around 100 psi while the hydraulic pressures are 20 times greater + getting a part back in the wrong place or dropped is not worth whatever you think you improved or learned.

When the loader is in place, its valve is the critical supply to the rear of the tractor using a function called Power Beyond.

As I told you in my first post I do not know your particular tractor but the basic principles of open center hydraulics do not change from tractor to tractor.

The hydraulic block outlet type is the place where the supply to the rear of the tractor occurs. The changing of covers depending upon an implement like a loader is attached or not is your clue to just how important this outlet block is.

I am not familiar with the FEL bypass you mention. It must take the place of changing outlet block covers.

Because you were not present when all this started, it makes the situation most difficult.

My suggestion to call a dealer is not meant to be a criticism of you or what your kids may have done. At a distance, for me it is impossible to visualize it all but I do not how quickly pumps are destroyed and this is what I want to save you from.

p.s. any chance your loader has a 3rd function valve for a grapple

Dave,

I will look into that and make changes accordingly.
On my tractor which is a BX2200D, the FEL is the holder of the control valve for the loader. There are three connections and a hose is left on the tractor, male end, which MUST be plugged into the female receptacle on the tractor or yes, the pump will burn out and this will also load the motor.
In the diagram you have above my "hydraulic block" type is "B" with the block and the steel lines coming off of it, and not "A".
Also, there is no 3rd function on my FEL.
I have a call into the dealer, 0600 this morning, and we'll see if they can provide me with any insight.
I have been reluctant to call the dealer I usually go to because they generally do not like their mechanics to be bothered, or at the least that is the impression I get when I have been there to ask questions.
Thank you for the insight and help I keep you informed on my progress.

Regards,
CC

 

[Cree Dog]

Dave,

I pulled the couplings off and this is what I found. See Pic.
I replaced this piece and the female piece and the 3pt went up and down several times and then just stopped. Disconnected the NEW couplings and found this same thing.
As you can see the nipple in the middle is off to one side and it was not like that when new. This is exactly how the new one came out also.
I'm thinking about just bypassing this circuit with a hydraulic hose just to get me through cutting season and in the mean time chatting with the dealer about this whole situation. I do not have the money to send this to the dealer so I am researching more about this so that I can repair it on my own.

Thanks for all your help and advice.

Regards,

Chris

 

[Dave_eng]

Dave,

I pulled the couplings off and this is what I found. See Pic.
I replaced this piece and the female piece and the 3pt went up and down several times and then just stopped. Disconnected the NEW couplings and found this same thing.
As you can see the nipple in the middle is off to one side and it was not like that when new. This is exactly how the new one came out also.
I'm thinking about just bypassing this circuit with a hydraulic hose just to get me through cutting season and in the mean time chatting with the dealer about this whole situation. I do not have the money to send this to the dealer so I am researching more about this so that I can repair it on my own.

Thanks for all your help and advice.

Regards,

Chris

Sorry I did not see your post until now. Sometimes the forum notifies me when a thread I have been posting in has something new but other times it does not.
The bypass hose you have been talking about....... I would remove this hose and any couplings it connects to.

Look through the hose to ensure no loose parts are wedged inside.

With the engine side hose open, kick the starter momentarity with the goal of flushing out any pieces. Do not let the engine start or all your oil will be on the ground

Buy hose couplings for each end of the bypass hose to get back in business for now.

Do not use plumbing connections or fittings. Get real hydraulic ones. Somewhere in this hose loop you will need a fitting with a swivel so you can tighten connections up. You cannot keep rotating the hose to make all the connections at each end.

Dave

 

[Cree Dog]

Sorry I did not see your post until now. Sometimes the forum notifies me when a thread I have been posting in has something new but other times it does not.
The bypass hose you have been talking about....... I would remove this hose and any couplings it connects to.

Look through the hose to ensure no loose parts are wedged inside.

With the engine side hose open, kick the starter momentarity with the goal of flushing out any pieces. Do not let the engine start or all your oil will be on the ground

Buy hose couplings for each end of the bypass hose to get back in business for now.

Do not use plumbing connections or fittings. Get real hydraulic ones. Somewhere in this hose loop you will need a fitting with a swivel so you can tighten connections up. You cannot keep rotating the hose to make all the connections at each end.


Dave,

Thanks again for all your help. I was getting in deeper than necessary for the problem though I did learn a lot about how all this works so it was worth it.
As it turned out it was the Male fitting that is in the picture I attached. There was no blockage other than the misaligned spring tip on the Male fitting.
I purchased some quality replacements and now my tractor is working as it should and I have a couple more replacement parts on the shelf now, just in case..
The hydraulic dealer I purchased these from said that the cause of the problem with the fitting was that there was a pressure spike. Could have been the Priority Valve, not sure. Everything is properly adjusted now and all is well.
Thanks again for all your help.
Peace be with you and yours.

Regards,

Christopher J. Courteau

 

[Dave_eng]

I am glad things are now resolved.

I too learned a lot about systems I have had little exposure to previously.

Dave