3 Point Lift / Lower Speed Adjuster BX 2660

[1810]

Went to adjust the 3 point lift speed and the control knob + the shaft came out in one piece. It was a classic case of "I wish I hadn't done that" , coupled with " Well, that's a new one on me", closely followed by "Now what"?

Open parts manual to see the exploded view & most if not all those parts were on the shaft in my hand. OK... now to the workshop manual, where it almost begrudgingly mentioned the adjuster's existence. As you will have guessed, there's not a word or even a syllable about how to remove it or reinstate it.

To the one tractor owner out there who has never enjoyed the thrill of having a component, or assembly, unexpectedly part company from aforesaid tractor, I will liken the "Eureka" moment to being similar to the unimaginable grand finale of an impromptu magicians act where he pulls an elephant out of a matchbox!

Call me old fashioned but, just for a nanosecond, there is a moment of wonder closely followed by "How did that happen...thats amazing"! Then reality sinks in & after manuals & ploughing 500 acres of internet sites etc. you begin to think you are not only the only person on the planet but also the only one with this particular problem.

So, ladies & gentlemen, my $64,000 question of the day ($350,00 with inflation) is...... has anyone had this experience & how did you go about fixing it? When I ask that question, I am well aware that I (a) need to have a detachable eyeballs to see the hole the shaft goes into, (b) require hands the size of a newborn baby grafted onto the arms of a giant octopus (for unimaginable dexterity & strength) and (c) possibly about 2 days to dismantle the tractor, take out a mortgage for the parts & then a month to rebuild it with half the parts I removed.

Before I forget, the byproduct of this issue is that with the shaft

Any sensible help would be appreciated.... & don't begin by telling me my best option is first get a Labrador to get me through my blindness phase. Thanks in advance.

 

[1810]

Apologies, I obviously lost the plot... "Before I forget, the byproduct of this issue is that with the shaft..." should have read .. "Before I forget, the byproduct of this issue is that with the shaft out, raising the 3 point produces a jet of oil through the orifice i.e. the 3 point can't be raised without the shaft reinstalled correctly.

Thanks, in advance to anyone with advice. & sorry for the error.

 

[85Hokie]

You mention the "lift speed" - that knob controls the "Lowering Speed" not the lift speed.

What does the "other" end look like ? Threads? Sheared?

can you upload picture of the shaft and knob?

 

[Russell King]

I have no real idea of what part broke so I can only speculate on that by looking at this

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If what you have in hand is a knob with a short piece of shaft that is broken then I wouldn’t think that would be causing any leaks of fluid but if it’s leaking fluid it looks like the keeper came off and the top cover will have to be removed to reassemble the shaft into the tractor.

If you can post pictures that would help

 

[85Hokie]

I wonder if this came loose somehow: 120

and if so - where did 100,110 go?

 

[mcfarmall]

I wonder if this came loose somehow: 120

and if so - where did 100,110 go?
View attachment 95273

That, my friends is truly the $350k question. In my line of work, the show stops until the missing hardware is found as it could have disastrous consequences for equipment and product.

 

[DustyRusty]

No question in my mind about where they went. They are at the bottom of the case and only the removal of the fenders and top cover will expose them. I only hope that he doesn't have a cab on the tractor because that will add hours of labor to the job.

 

[1810]

I think I need to answer a few things here, to different feedbacks.

To 85Hokie...thanks. I obviously wan't paying attention to control direction but, to be honest, you have the speed control I had referred to & then you have the actual lift / lower control lever & if you are gentle with the latter movements, you can "feather" the flow of hydraulic oil. Why am I commenting on this point?...As I have just stated, there's a knob to control / limit speed & then there's the up / down lever which is easy to shove from up to down in one big handful. If you are gentle with the up / down lever, you can control the speed in either direction. What I learned from all or this is that if the 3 point is lifting & lowering OK....leave the speed adjust where it is & control the speed on the up / down lever. My issue now is because I decided to adjust the speed when I should have left well alone. .. i.e. don't make the same mistake I did.

To DustyRusty, I am sorry to say that you are wrong, by a long way. To install this whole control shaft / assembly, the first thing you need to install is a spring followed by a ball bearing. Once those are in place, you insert the shaft & screw it into the internal thread. Regardless of anything else you have to do, there is no way spring, ball bearing or anything else can end up in the bowels of the case. If this were at all possible, you'd never be able to insert the spring & ball bearing on their own... they would have to be physically attached to the shaft end that otherwise follows them into the housing. But , you are , I believe quite right with regards to bodywork. When this event began, I could see no way out of it other than to remove everything above that orifice...& there's lots to take off. I the world of dreams, I dreamed that someone would tell me that I can leave all the bodywork as-is....in my dreams, & still fix it.


Back to 85Hokie... thanks for the drawing, much appreciated, even though I had it. Busy with other things, until today, I took a different view on things & shoved a flashlight almost in through the bodywork.

I'm not 100% sure but I believe the spring is still in the orifice. Something to try to extract tomorrow.

Now, I have magnets, electro-magnets that can lift 85kg & a metal detector...& I scoured the area the tractor was in, for one ball bearing & a spring & found nothing... so they might still be in there. I think the spring is but, in the beam of the flashlight, something was shining & I believe it's the ball bearing, resting 2 or 3 inches below the orifice amongst cables or hoses....another job for tomorrow. To paint a picture, when I adjusted the control & it parted company with the tractor, I was in a garage, tractor over a mat & wooden sheets. So, if anything had fallen out, it would be not far away & I ran over that area with magnets to pickup the spring & / or ball bearing....nothing.

For the sake of others who might do as I did, DON'T! This is a case of don't do as I did, do as I say. Believe me, you don't want this to happen to you.

I'm further on now than I was a few days ago & understand more but without stripping off all of the rear bodywork +++, there is no way to fix this.

As small a part of the function of the tractor this is. I can attach any implement but would have to drag it to a place to begin work & then have no control.

Anyway, here's a few photos to show the real world of that little knob below the driver's seat.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

It would help if you had the right diagram of what your dealing with.
The Eclip that's dangling around on your shaft #190 holds clip #180, which you don't have, and #190 clips into a slot on the case.

You were so quick and harsh to jump all over DustyRusty , when he was right, just had the verbiage just slightly off, he meant you will need to remove the parts to be able to see if the parts are Sitting ON TOP of the case.

 

[Russell King]

Question for those that have at least seen one of these assemblies…

To get this fixed correctly requires taking the top cover off and then installing the parts and retaining the shaft into the case so that it doesn’t come unscrewed again. I assume this is a correct statement from the diagram above.

But currently the hydraulic pump has a opening to the outside and will pump out the hydraulic fluid through the hole where the rod passes.

To operate the tractor in its current condition is not a good idea but could the rod just be screwed into place and GENTLY tightened into place to seal up the current opening?

I guess another way to ask is
What seals the hydraulic opening? Is it the ball or the rod?

I imagine that any rear implements would not be able to be lowered easily or at all without the ball and spring being in place but could the tractor become movable with the rod installed?

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

To operate the tractor in its current condition is not a good idea but could the rod ju be screwed into place and GENTLY tightened into place to seal up the current opening?

I guess another way to ask is
What seals the hydraulic opening? Is it the ball or the rod?

I imagine that any rear implements would not be able to be lowered easily or at all without the ball and spring being in place but could the tractor become movable with the rod installed?

Yes you could install the rod without the ball or spring or clips, it just won't allow the three point to work properly.
The O-ring on the shaft is what seals the hydraulic fluid from leaking.

 

[Russell King]

Yes you could install the rod without the ball or spring or clips, it just won't allow the three point to work properly.
The O-ring on the shaft is what seals the hydraulic fluid from leaking.

Thank you for the information

 

[1810]

Crossed wires of text & interpretation are easy when you can't see the exact problem. For example, North Idaho Wolfman states that "it would be helpful if I had the correct diagram etc. .." when the parts diagram was provided by someone trying to help me & not by me. He also asks " What seals the hydraulic opening? Is it the ball or the rod? The answer to that is something like... how does a spring or ball seal hydraulic pressure? The spring & ball are a means of controlling flow, not the seal. They are not seals. It's the O-ring! When has a spring sealed oil under pressure, in your experience?

I did not "jump all over Dusty Rusty." I didn't design the apertures or component arrangement, but if you have to insert a spring, followed by a ball bearing, into a virtual horizontal hole, if they ended up in the bowels of the hydraulics or, as he stated "at the bottom of the case"...they didn't float upwards or outwards & land somewhere else! How is that conceived to be harsh? I haven't written the laws on gravity but I do understand engineering designs.

Someone has asked / suggested "To operate the tractor in its current condition is not a good idea but could the rod ju be screwed into place and GENTLY tightened into place to seal up the current opening?. Maybe, but that's advocating leaving components out. "Not a good idea" should read "Don't do this". A missing spring washer on a bolt is one thing, but missing out components...don't do it.

As an observer, the fact that the shaft has a thread, suggests that I might be able to screw the shaft in AND have a hydraulic seal but that would be without the circlip & the stopper ring item #180 in the drawing.

I already know that this is a seat off, body panels off & a lot of work but the main purpose of the orginal post was to highlight an issue that can be avoided & maybe it's helped one person not to do as I did.

Latest... I have the ball... but still trying to get the spring out... so that I can see exactly what is missing.

 

[DustyRusty]

Put a Band-Aid on it and it will be fine in a few days.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

WOW, by chance are you an engineer?
You are overly complicating everything!
You do not need to remove the spring, there is nothing behind it!
Put the ball back in the hole, put the rod back in the hole, find or buy the #180 clip that has now fallen out, may have been now may have been months earlier.
Install clip on shaft seat shaft, install snap ring, go on about your day.

 

[Russell King]

Crossed wires of text & interpretation are easy when you can't see the exact …

He also asks " What seals the hydraulic opening? Is it the ball or the rod? The answer to that is something like... how does a spring or ball seal hydraulic pressure? The spring & ball are a means of controlling flow, not the seal. They are not seals. It's the O-ring! When has a spring sealed oil under pressure, in your experience?
…

Someone has asked / suggested "To operate the tractor in its current condition is not a good idea but could the rod ju be screwed into place and GENTLY tightened into place to seal up the current opening? Maybe, but that's advocating leaving components out. "Not a good idea" should read "Don't do this". A missing spring washer on a bolt is one thing, but missing out components...don't do it.

The “He” you referenced in the second paragraph is me (Russell King not NIW) that asked what seals the hydraulic pressure. In my experience I have seen many things that seal pressure with a ball bearing and a spring. Think about some pressure relief valves or quick disconnect couplers for example. Adjustment of spring pressure can be done with a threaded rod to control the opening pressure of the ball and its seat. So never having seen the hydraulic system diagram before for this tractor I am curious enough to ask questions and not assume that I know the correct answer.

In the last paragraph you wrote that my question about being able to use the tractor was advocating leaving it in a condition that is missing parts. My question was more about being able to move the tractor to a different location possibly from a muddy cold field to a nice warm workshop where it could be repaired properly. i was asking if it was possible not advocating anything as far as I read and understand what I wrote. I am sorry if it sounded any differently to you or others.

 

[whitetiger]

[QUOTE="Russell King,"
So never having seen the hydraulic system diagram before for this tractor I am curious enough to ask questions and not assume that I know the correct answer.
[/QUOTE]
Here is a pdf of the 3 point lower rate assembly.
The only purpose of the E clip and circlip are to keep the threaded lowering speed control from completely unscrewing out like the OPs has done. The E clip is installed on the shaft and when the shaft is unscrewed to a certain point, it contacts the circlip so it cannot be unscrewed any further.

 

[Russell King]

@whitetiger
Thank you for the pdf and description of the operation

 

[1810]

WOW, by chance are you an engineer?
You are overly complicating everything!
You do not need to remove the spring, there is nothing behind it!
Put the ball back in the hole, put the rod back in the hole, find or buy the #180 clip that has now fallen out, may have been now may have been months earlier.
Install clip on shaft seat shaft, install snap ring, go on about your day.
[/QUOTE]

No matter if you are an engineer or sheer genius, there will always be something you don't know or haven't come across before & that's all that happened to me...so I asked. Because I was in no hurry to fix what I didn't know or was unsure of, I asked questions in the hope of someone responding who had had the same problem, that's all.

With the shaft etc. out of the orifice, I saw where the ball was sitting on the casing below & recovered it & the spring is still inside. Why remove the spring? Everything else is out in the fresh air...& what if the spring is broken or I didn't check it & I put it all back together? How smart is that?

From experience, if something is broken between A & D, you don't jump in between B & C. You think outside the box & a little further from the obvious & make sure that when you fix something, you've actually fixed it.

Does that somehow classify me as "Wow, am I an engineer", no!

It makes me someone asking a question. This small problem, that all I hoped for was the solution to, opened up opinions & thoughts of what it could or might be, or what I could try....but we / I already had those thoughts before asking for help. Anyone offering 2+2=5 or a variation on it doesn't solve the problem.

There is a procedure to remove that shaft & another to reinstate it & so far, no one has said what that is but I am a little wiser now yet still in hope of the "Holy Grail".

It reminds me of one issue, at 3am, offshore India. The problem was with sonar, if you know what that is, & it's software. A problem that no document covered, no manual or parts diagram "explained" & no reinstallation of software would resolve. No one had a clue what the fix was or had experienced it before & no one in our entire corporation, UK, America, Singapore or Middle East could solve it. In the middle of nowhere, I emailed the manufacturers directly, in Canada, bypassed all normal channels of assistance & I had a solution in less than an hour....because I just gave a thought outside the box & ignored the suggestions from everyone else who didn't know what they were talking about. It's not about "being smart" or being right when others are wrong....it's about where to find the sensible advice that get's you working again...& India was just one multi-million dollar contract on hold...because of a glitch in software.

I could talk to you about working with 25,000+ psi hydraulics, -5 to 3,000V....pneumatics & hydraulic tools, LP & HP compressors, generators, hydraulic pumps & servo or solenoid valves, lifting things offshore that weigh 7,500 tons or less, working to component levels on computer PCBs, life in hyperbaric systems & how to run them & living in 350ft of water.... or fibre optics & how to use & repair them....but I would hate you to think I was engineer of any sort. One thing I do know is when to ask a question.

 

[1810]

Russell, I meant to say more but got sidetracked & somehow sent an incomplete email. The pdf you gave wouldn't ope & later in the day a window had 6 of your file open & I looked at one closely + your comment & learned something.

From experiences...springs & balls have been flow controls but mot necessarily shut offs & I assumed the ball was the flow control & the O-ring was the seal. The pdf you sent says differently...the ball is the shut off which I can understand. Why, because I've worked with all sorts of hydraulics & electro-hydraulics & they can function in different ways...different to what I was expecting.

However, what isn't explained anywhere is the relationship between the "stopper" / "E clip" & circlip. Forgive my ignorance here, I can see on drawings what you refer to as the "E clip" is behind or outside the circlip....but I had no idea it is located on the shaft, & not in the same groove as the circlip. There's no reason to assume the "E clip" sits in the same grove as the circlip but the drawings show parts & not where they are supposed to fit.... hence my grey area on this.

Bottom line, as much as I want this tractor up & running as normal, there was no way I was about to take off seat & remove all the bodywork before I had a clear idea of what's involved... not with the removal of bodywork but the reinstallation of the shaft & understanding its components & function to the best of my abilities.

If someone had asked me, the circlip is the retainer to prevent complete unscrewing of the shaft & the O-ring is the seal against oil pressure...but the circlip seems to require the backup of the "E clip". It's just a design feature I haven't come across before.... but thank you. I like it when someone talks sense & I learn something new. After all, I am just like the rest of humanity...have all the answers...but only to some of the questions....