So Greta isn't Greta

Tornado

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If you read a little history, it wasn't the scientists, is was the religious leaders and philosophers that said the earth was the center of the universe. It's God's chosen place, man's only domicile. Didn't care to have their religious scam dispelled by mere facts.
Galileo was put under house arrest for his heretic views, Giordono Bruno was burned at the stake for among other things expressing belief that other solar systems exist. Nicolaus Copernicus who proposed the Earth and other planets orbit the Sun, and out of fear of retribution by the Church delayed having his theory published until after his death. Now we have discovered thousands of planets orbiting other stars.
Religion has had to move the dogmatic goal posts back as scientists continually prove outlandish religious beliefs are hogwash, designed to keep the faithful scared of going to hell if they don't believe the church's teachings.

Don't get me wrong, scientists sometimes get it wrong, but eventually they get it sorted out and get it right. Most of the time newer techniques and better equipment allow them to uncover the true principal or method leading to the correct data and theory.

It always amazes me how some people take so many scientific theories for granted, like electromagnetic theory that explains how radio, computers and MRIs work, but pooh pooh climate science, one of the most validated sciences in human history.
I'm an avid reader, and 100% of my reading is in history. I particularly love studying the American Revolution. I have however taken dives in other topics that have interested me. One of those most recent dives was into the life of Albert Einstein, and more broadly the evolution of quantum mechanics - something Einstein never did buy into. Einstein went to the grave trying to develop a unified field theory to disprove quantum mechanics. What you will find though is that scientists are wrong a lot. Many great scientific minds spend their lives punching new holes in the things we dont understand. I find it fascinating, and I love to read and study these things, but science has often been terribly wrong on things throughout history. Even in the medical world we have been wrong. The Ideology of the low fat diet, and how it conquered America is a good example.

One of my big hobbies over years past was in nature and wild life photography. I also live in the country like many here Im sure do. I appreciate wildlife, nature, and It angers me to see people do careless things like throwing trash out their car window. However - when it comes to climate change, all my reading has brought me caution. One of my other passions (Im an introvert who falls deeply into personal interests) was in weather. I actually wanted to go to school for meteorology when I was in high school. Im much older now but still very passionate about weather. I have a professional weather station and I track all my own weather history at my house. Being in Florida, I also have loved the art of tracking hurricanes during hurricane season since I was old enough to know how. I share all of that to highlight the fact that I have a real interest here. I have spent time reading and researching the facts, the data. What concerns me with the current state of the whole "Climate Change Debate" is the rabid alarmism - often pushed by people who really know nothing about climate science or the weather. Anytime fear is the primary motivator for anything, your red flag should immediately go up, and you should start to dig deeper.

We know that carbon in the atmosphere has been increasing, that can be measured. We also know that there have been periods where carbon was drastically higher than it is today - if you go back into the millions of years. Instead we see headlines like this " Carbon Dioxide Reaches Highest Recorded Levels In Human History" with values of over 400ppm. The key here being Human History. If you drop the human part, and just look at the history of the earth There were periods where Co2 levels were 10 times higher than they are today - over 4,000ppm. Im aware there are arguments for everything though, and lots of ways to dismiss this and dismiss that. The fact is that Co2 is on the rise, but the big unknown is how the planet will adapt or respond to higher levels of Co2. That is the part where we leave facts and get into theories of how the earth will respond. My personal feeling is that we are drastically overplaying the fear, much as has been done with various other big social movements in the past. Politicians, particularly on the far left, are constantly making silly outlandish statements that suggest Armageddon is on our doorstep if we don't do something yesterday. I simply do not buy into this at all. There is no reasoned thoughtful approach to any of it by many politicians, no consideration for any other possibilities by most who buy in. I've tried to discuss this with many die hard leftist folks, and their whole position is one that you would more often seen aligned with a religious position - it is almost a cult to some, and reason has long gone out the window. I often hear the same talking points as well, over and over and over, which is further proof to me that it has become too fanatacized. It is like talking to anti vac folks.

Some of the best hurricane experts can not even accurately forecast hurricanes sometimes - and these are people I respect very much. We can totally misforcast a hurricane when we have ALL of the parameters on the table. Hurricane forecasting is so good now, we know so much, we know all the data points, we can measure every single element that affects a hurricane, and we still see some storms forecast completely blown out of the water. As an amateur forecaster my own internal forecast is often way off. Sometimes I'm dead on the money - and sometimes something happens that just cant be explained. It will sometimes fool every single forecast model we have- and these models are highly sophisticated and very very accurate. The point of my rambling is this - The climate is far more unpredictable than most people realize or understand, and the planet far more resilient than people give it credit for. Projecting how high the oceans will be in 50 or 100 years for example is such a silly thing to try and predict. I would honestly put such predictions at less than 1% chance to be accurate. Lets not forget many climate predictions over the last 50 years have already failed to come to pass.

I am someone who respects science - I love it in fact. I respect many of the brilliant minds in science, particularly those in history who had so little to work with compared to what we do today. But in my study of some of these great minds I often find a lot of the same pitfalls of human nature. Pit falls that hit many great historical figures, not just those in the world of science - they buy into their own ideology. Einstein is a great example of a pure genius, who spent years chasing rabbits down rabbit trails that never went anywhere. I respect him tremendously for chasing those rabbits, because every rabbit trail that leads to a dead end is in itself another answer, another piece to the puzzle. Many scientists have done this - they buy into a bad theory and ride it for years in some cases until being proven wrong. When you want to find something bad enough, you can start to find it in everything if you arent careful, reasoned in your mental approach, and self aware enough to not fall into typical trappings. When your theory seems perfect is when you need to start asking the most questions. In 50 years a lot of things are going to happen regarding the climate that will throw us curve balls, and I suspect most of them will come as complete surprises when they occur. We dont have this thing figured out nearly as well as we think we do. Dont buy into fear mongering. Fear is the cheapest and easiest means to taming and controlling the human mind. Fear, when propogated en masse on a society has lead to some of the greatest downfalls of humanity.

EDIT: original post written in haste, edited to better convey my thoughts.
 
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BAP

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Great post and well laid out Tornado.
 

Tornado

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Excellent post Tornado and Touche' on the screen name.
Thats actually where the name came from! Ive used some variant of "tornado" since I was 12 years old. Im nearing 40 now lol. I used to want to go out to oklahama and chase tornado's too.
 

Lil Foot

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Well said, Tornado! Maybe you should run for office.
 

Tornado

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Well said, Tornado! Maybe you should run for office.
appreciate those kind remarks but I would make one lousy politician. We dont elect thinkers anymore in this country. They are too quite, they dont perform well in debates. We elect charisma today, which most would say I have very little of. I am of the unfortunate opinion that America's best days are behind her, not in front of her. That sort of message wouldnt sell too well.
 

Lil Foot

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Unfortunately, your assessment is right on. I have hope for the country, but it is waning fast.
 

Tarmy

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Tornado...

Here in Commiefornia...you would be laughed at, ridiculed, doxed...basically called a bad person.

Why?

Because you are being practical, articulate, accurate, reasonable and basically using common sense.

These days, having lived here over 60 years, anyone who is not on board is a a pariah...and treated as such...overtly.

The complete irony of it all...is that most of these folks have never camped out, hiked, climbed our beautiful mountains, rode a bike across country ( I have) or done anything to really understand the country, wilderness or what makes it all work. They believe they are smarter than you...and that they are the ones who will straighten this and us all out...
 

D2Cat

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Tornado, I see enough of those storm chasers on YouTube, and the results of those storms to keep my distance. I agree with your comments and the caution of fear as a motivator.

F....false
E...evidence
A...appearing
R...real
 

dlundblad

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For those of you who believe in climate change, look into the shifting of the poles.

Google space weather pole shifting. It has nothing to do with humans unless somehow we can control the Sun.
 

quazz

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At the end of the day we have on one side the overwhelming majority of climate scientists around the world and every scientific organization telling us that man is impacting climate. NASA put a man on the moon in 1969 among other amazing feats of science and engineering so I expect they know a thing or two about science. On the other hand we have amateurs contesting the science. As I said before, if I have a problem with my Kubota I come here and ask the experts. If I have a toothache I consult a dentist. Disregarding advice I don't like is emotional not logical but I am free to do so.
I really wish that there was no man made climate change but that has zero bearing on science.
 

NHSleddog

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At the end of the day we have on one side the overwhelming majority of climate scientists around the world .....
There is no "overwhelming" majority, and saying it doesn't make it so. If it is such good science they would not have cooked the books in the early 2000's. Everyone believes the environment changes unless they live under a rock.

So do you believe the "experts" that rely on cooked numbers, or the ones looking at the real numbers (that we no longer have)?

You keep mentioining NASA and bravo for our space program but seriously, there have been some stupendous blunders done by all the smart folks there. Every single one of them are still human.

The new 737Max has over 4 billion dollars of "engineering" in it by some really smart people. Care to fly on it?

For sure though, they have done an excellent job with the lemmings.
 

Tornado

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At the end of the day we have on one side the overwhelming majority of climate scientists around the world and every scientific organization telling us that man is impacting climate. NASA put a man on the moon in 1969 among other amazing feats of science and engineering so I expect they know a thing or two about science. On the other hand we have amateurs contesting the science. As I said before, if I have a problem with my Kubota I come here and ask the experts. If I have a toothache I consult a dentist. Disregarding advice I don't like is emotional not logical but I am free to do so.
I really wish that there was no man made climate change but that has zero bearing on science.
The problem quazz, and why I think so many people have become so fractured on climate is because it has become politicized. People like AOC have not helped the cause. You have all these politicians who make silly statements, and offer so many radical suggestions to "fix it". Most reasonable people who read, study, and are thoughtful can accept that the climate is changing. Now, how much of it is caused by man is very debatable. Also debatable is how will the earth adapt to the changes over time. This short video by Richard Lindzen sums out my general opinion on the issue:

https://youtu.be/OwqIy8Ikv-c
 

quazz

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The problem quazz, and why I think so many people have become so fractured on climate is because it has become politicized. People like AOC have not helped the cause. You have all these politicians who make silly statements, and offer so many radical suggestions to "fix it". Most reasonable people who read, study, and are thoughtful can accept that the climate is changing. Now, how much of it is caused by man is very debatable. Also debatable is how will the earth adapt to the changes over time. This short video by Richard Lindzen sums out my general opinion on the issue:

https://youtu.be/OwqIy8Ikv-c
I agree that the injection of politics has made a mess of the whole thing. I also think you raise great points. That said, we are both amateurs. The difference is our level of trust in the credibility of the scientific community.
 

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You know here is what I just don't get. Why does everyone have to be playing this whole holier than thou mentality? I mean everyone. Personally I don't really care if global warming is real or not but having the goal to leave a cleaner and better place for future generations should be obvious. Wouldn't it be great to not depend on foreign oil because we don't use it? So we don't have to send 20 year olds across the world to die. Wouldn't it be great to be able to drive 600 miles in a vehicle that can do 0-60 in 3 seconds and it only cost $20 to top off? So we can save money and still be reckless like we are Harrison Ford in American Graffiti.

Does it really matter who typed what on the internet for the kid? She is still fighting for what she believes in and on the largest stage in the world. The US President is trying to belittle her and she is in her TEENS. Literally a 70 year old stranger (to her) is insulting a kid. I imagine that if some rich 70 year old did that to one of your kids you'd tell your kid to ignore the old ****. Lord knows I would. It is something she believes strongly in and is willing to stand up for it no matter who is throwing insults at her or how nasty those insults get.

I don't know why everything is just pointing fingers when instead we should be pushing the bounds of what is possible and leaving a place better than it was when you showed up is something to be expected. Hopefully no one hunts someone else's property and leaves their trash behind but instead picks up after themselves and then some.
 

quazz

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You know here is what I just don't get. Why does everyone have to be playing this whole holier than thou mentality? I mean everyone. Personally I don't really care if global warming is real or not but having the goal to leave a cleaner and better place for future generations should be obvious. Wouldn't it be great to not depend on foreign oil because we don't use it? So we don't have to send 20 year olds across the world to die. Wouldn't it be great to be able to drive 600 miles in a vehicle that can do 0-60 in 3 seconds and it only cost $20 to top off? So we can save money and still be reckless like we are Harrison Ford in American Graffiti.

Does it really matter who typed what on the internet for the kid? She is still fighting for what she believes in and on the largest stage in the world. The US President is trying to belittle her and she is in her TEENS. Literally a 70 year old stranger (to her) is insulting a kid. I imagine that if some rich 70 year old did that to one of your kids you'd tell your kid to ignore the old ****. Lord knows I would. It is something she believes strongly in and is willing to stand up for it no matter who is throwing insults at her or how nasty those insults get.

I don't know why everything is just pointing fingers when instead we should be pushing the bounds of what is possible and leaving a place better than it was when you showed up is something to be expected. Hopefully no one hunts someone else's property and leaves their trash behind but instead picks up after themselves and then some.
I am right there with ya!
 

Tornado

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I agree that the injection of politics has made a mess of the whole thing. I also think you raise great points. That said, we are both amateurs. The difference is our level of trust in the credibility of the scientific community.
Well we likely have differences in personality. I am an INTJ personality type, if youre familiar with MBTI. I question everything, and seek to arrive at my own conclusions after exhausting my own research and reading. I do not accept anything just because someone has a title, because titles mean nothing to me. I also know a lot of people with PHD's who are surprisingly unintelligent. Im also well aware of how easy it can be for a whole mass of people to buy into something that, at its foundation, is everything but solid ground. Humans have a history of doing this over and over again. You should read about Einstein's theory of relativity, and how much stuff he had to go through from senior scientists who doubted him. They called him all sorts of things - he was challenging Sir Isaac Newton himself! Blasphemy. Eventually however it turned out Einstein was right - and everyone else was wrong. He changed the science around time and motion by himself - One man, because he had a rebellious spirit about him - he didn't mind dismissing long standing rules, and questioning what everyone else presumed to be right at the time. It is only because of his rebellious spirit that he was able to bring us the theory of relativity. You could have said Einstein, as a young 20 and 30 something year old man didnt trust the scientific community of his day.

This is the problem for me though. I look at big pictures. To me this whole thing is not as black and white as it may be to you. You seem to think all scientists are all in agreement that we are all destroying the planet and are gonna cause Armageddon within the next 50 years. However, this isnt the case. The reality is it has become MUCH messier than that. You have many scientists now who have no training or study in climate science making predictions now - blaming all sorts of things on climate change. So we are being flooded with theory after theory and all jumping on the bandwagon that it must be the climate. Everything from the cause of civil wars, to diseases, to changes in biology - many of these theories hinge on very tiny samples of evidence that are in no way conclusive - but if you can make the connection the media can make you famous because they love climate change stories. Climate change has become another one of these vacuums - very similar to the big "Low fat diet" push from years past that swept the medical world, and ended with every product on store shelves labeling their product "FAT FREE!" "LOW FAT!" now the medical world has come around, and is trying to correct the falsehoods - but it flooded society so hard that many people still think eating fat free will make them lose weight, and improve their heart health. When these vacuums occur it sucks in everyone - even the most intelligent, and it often takes an Albert Einstein like character to right the ship. Humans love to barrel into conclusions, then structure everything around them in such a way that it supports their conclusions, and before long everyone is building a whole society into an empire of a conclusion that at its core rests on things we often know little about. We still know so little about the worlds climate, yet people can somehow predict that in 50 years X amount of ocean front is going to be consumed by the sea, and this animal species is going to go extinct, and this and that is going to happen. Its so outlandish to make such predictions - its so unscientific in my opinion. But we are in a climate change vacuum right now. In 50 or 100 years, when most all of these predictions have failed to occur, the vacuum will eventually die, as the public will tune out more and more, and we will quickly forget all the hysteria that we drummed up, much like we forgot the previous hysteria's that were drummed up over issues, and by 2100 we will likely be in a new vacuum of some design. It is human nature. Everyone has this need to have a purpose, and it leads to many great things, and many terrible things. I try to remain self aware of these things in my life.

With all that said - I do not have issue with common sense climate changes. If we can get to a point where we aren't burning coal for power, I do think that is a good aspiration to have. I'm all for renewable energy, but not because of the fear mongering, but because I think its the future, and is a good, logical thing to continue to pursue. I am not for this happening by government mandate however, and high taxes, and over burdening regulation, and free government handouts at tax payers expense (which just breed cronyism, which further feeds the vacuum). In my own life I try to be very conscientious of nature and wild life. Not because I buy into climate change hysteria, but because I'm just a conscientious person who respects life and the beauty of nature. A lot of this is just good common sense. I find that most "rural conservatives" who the left love to hate, actually end up being more "green friendly" in their day to day life practice than the more liberal crowd who are attending climate marches. Its quite ironic really. You find a lot of little ironic things in these "vacuums" as I call them - one of those things is that often the person preaching the loudest are often the worst offenders of their own sermons. We saw this with Al Gore when his electricity consumption became public at his personal home, among other things. The reason this is, is because its just a religion to them, but they have almost subconsciously exempted themselves. Much like many preachers stand behind a pulpit and preach the bible, then the next day are raping children or carrying out other terrible crimes, only to get behind the pulpit again next week and preach to you again. Human nature is a murky thing.The more I read and study history the more vast I realize it is. Human psychology is incredibly complex.
 

sdk1968

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Does it really matter who typed what on the internet for the kid?

She is still fighting for what she believes in and on the largest stage in the world.

The US President is trying to belittle her and she is in her TEENS. Literally a 70 year old stranger (to her) is insulting a kid. I imagine that if some rich 70 year old did that to one of your kids you'd tell your kid to ignore the old ****. Lord knows I would. It is something she believes strongly in and is willing to stand up for it no matter who is throwing insults at her or how nasty those insults get.
not picking on you or at you. we are all entitled to have different views. sometimes we learn from each other.... other times we just become more convinced in our own views.

while im totally against her presentation, its the actual kid that deserves our concern more than her actions.


would like to go to these points of yours.

A. YES of course it matters. "she" is claiming to be all this & know all this. its fraud on her end, she doesnt "know" anything... only whats shes TOLD.

B. is she/does she really? her carbon footprint alone in the last 3 months is more than mine(& probably yours) for an entire DECADE. how is that helping the world? isn't that saving the seals by killing the polar bears?

C. If my teenage kids who have no life experience & make a bigger foot print on the world than me everyday with all their consumerism try to tell me or anyone else how to live THEIR life? your dang right, i tell them to shut their mouths until they have some sort of real grasp on what they are talking about.

D. This girls parents should be shot or beat to death. They have tried to profit from this little girl since 2015 when they went public with her diagnosis & tried to make money from it. They are letting a little girl with a mental condition be exploited for their own agenda & gain. she has Aspergers/Autism & documented issues with her own personal anger/control.


just some good discussion points/thoughts for those who really want to have a conversation.
 

NHSleddog

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When is the last time you heard an expert say every man woman and child on earth should plant a tree every year? That is something that WILL help reduce emissions while producing oxygen and is very easy and affordable to do.

When is the last time you heard an expert pushing geothermal? It is the one solar renewable that actually cools the earth while operating. No, the solar and wind lobbies have that discussion all sewn up.

No you hear Americans need to write a big check to solve the problem.

As far as Greta and her activist dad goes, personally, I think putting words in the mouth of your child with disabilities, using her for a world tour and writing words for her to push your own agenda is closer to child abuse than good parenting. Funny how people see things differently.
 

quazz

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D. This girls parents should be shot or beat to death.


just some good discussion points/thoughts for those who really want to have a conversation.
Riiiight.

I think it has been a reasonable discussion. I like Tornado's comments and video for example even though I still disagree. Ccoon said it very well too.
Being reasonable is how we get to solutions.