Tractor Purchase Not Working Out, Getting Stressed

PaulL · Dec 5, 2019

chimpywrench said:
Met with my Kubota dealer for about an hour today. Listed my issues. He agreed and apologized about the string of delays. He was very adamant that this situation was a fluke and that their parts and service are usually very fast. I believe him. I've been in there a number of times over the past couple months and their service trucks seem to stay moving.

Before I proposed anything, he offered to do some of the implements at cost. We didn't get into any exact numbers though. I'm not really sure what the margins are on Land Pride stuff.

That's excellent service, and much nicer than getting into an argument.

chimpywrench said:
The BX is basically there any ready at this point. There was one other minor thing they needed to do, but I can't even remember what it was. I got to drive it around and operate everything.

Also excellent, as they're not fibbing, you've seen it and driven it.

chimpywrench said:
Some immediate thoughts:
BX is faster than the 1025r. I thought the specs only said 0.5mph faster, but it felt like more than that. Maybe I didn't try the 1025r at full throttle when I was driving it? Actually, I don't know if engine rpm's affects drive speed.

RPM's do impact drive speed, but the way to think about it is that the HST is a pump. More RPM = more total oil pumped, up to the pump's limit. The pedal controls how much of that pumped oil is translated into forward motion. So not enough RPM will definitely mean less than maximum speed, but more RPM only means more speed if you also push on the pedal.

chimpywrench said:
The loader actually has two functions at once, but since I barely know how to operate it, it is hard for me to appreciate that yet.

I suspect this is true, as it's common wisdom on the internet that the Kubota hydraulics are better. But I've seen people online running two functions on a JD just fine, so I suspect you get used to whatever you own. Neither is a bad tractor.

chimpywrench said:
I can't tell if the BX loader is bouncing more than the JD, or if I was just being much more careful operating the JD (dealer was saying they have to be really careful to demoing equipment). BX loader felt bouncy though, which I didn't like.

Bouncy when operating, or bouncy when driving over rough terrain? Assuming it was when operating, then easy solution is to run lower RPM. More RPM = more hydraulic flow, until you get used to things it's easier to run lower RPM and then everything is just a bit slower and more controlled.

chimpywrench said:
The bigger JD hood blocks more view than the BX, but the loader buckets are about equally visible because the JD bucket is bigger. In general, I feel like I can see around the BX better, which makes sense because it is a bit smaller.
The backhoe on the BX is definitely smoother. JD is claiming that the updated 260B backhoe has cushioned cylinders, but it still felt pretty bangy to me. The BT603 on the BX felt much nicer. I'm glad I got to operate both machines within 24 hours, because I noticed some other things: the visibility on the BX backhoe seemed much better, and one big one that didn't occur to me is that the JD backhoe really can't be operated at all when in the drivers seat, because the backhoe seat completely blocks the backhoe controls. On the BX, you can just turn your body in the seat a bit and play with the backhoe - quite useful if you're just picking something up with the thumb to carry elsewhere.
The BX is not quieter as claimed on one of the Messicks videos. Both machines topped out at about 89db at full throttle, using my meter.

I'd say you need to stop comparing the two, unless you'd seriously change your order at this point (I'd guess you wouldn't). There are things that the JD does better, and things the Kubota does better. To me the JD actually sits between the BX and the B2601, so if you spend too long looking at it you'll realise it's a bit bigger and a bit more powerful. But then, if you wanted a bit bigger and more powerful tractor you could look at the B2601, which is a bit bigger and more powerful than the JD1025R. Keep doing that and you'll end up on an M-series machine.

So long as it does what you need in your usage, don't worry about whether some other machine might do some specific task a little better - you'll never notice once it's home. The only thing I'd say is that if you think the BX is a bit too small, deal with that now. Everything else, you'll learn to live with.

chimpywrench said:
I asked my dealer more questions about the front sweeper for the BX. This item has given me more questions than anything, and another bigger dealer an hour away doesn't stock it either. My dealer is arranging a meeting with someone 20min away who has that BX sweeper setup, so hopefully I can actually see it operating. This item alone could draw a huge price and quality difference between the Kubota and the JD. Kubota's 60" sweeper setup is around $3800, and JD's 60" sweeper setup is about $5700. JD has a 52" sweeper for $4250, but it just seems like a much lighter duty version.

I haven't seen a lot of sweepers on a BX, I see them a lot for road maintenance on a B sized machine.

chimpywrench said:
My Kubota dealer offered to drop off the BX tomorrow, less implements, so I could start using it. He's actually offering to do this before we even have a final sales contract, and after I told him I was feeling uneasy about going through with the purchase. I was surprised and didn't really give an answer to the offer. It sure would be nice to have a tractor this weekend.

Decide whether the BX is big enough for you. If you're not concerned on size (and sounds like you're not), then just get it. You'll spend months working out that the JD drive over deck is better, the loader lifts a little more, the hydraulics are a little worse, the turning circle is different but it depends who adjusted it properly from factory. All the time you're thinking about that stuff you could be driving your brand new tractor.

And really, the dealer's done a lot of work for you. You won't feel good walking away from that deal at this point, it'll be an argument and a bad taste. If it weren't for the delay you wouldn't even be thinking about changing, and he's going to give you a deal to compensate for the delay. Focus on the cheap implements you're getting, and all the great stuff you'll be able to do. I hear JD implements are expensive, and of course it's harder to share implements with neighbours due to non-standard attach (unless your neighbours have a JD, in which case, you probably should get a JD too), whereas the SSQA is more standard for people with different sorts of tractors.

MadMax31 · Dec 5, 2019

chimpywrench said:
I'm surprised you put any money down, or was it 0% for 84 months requiring a down payment?
When I thought about the pedals, frankly, I'm not sure I cared for either one. I don't know what I would want instead, but neither of the two thrilled me. I'm probably just used to shifting gears to reverse. What I did conclude, was that the BX was probably much safer to let someone else operate, since the pedal control is super obvious.

20% down got me 0% for 84 months. That means 84 months of KTAC insurance. I sold my B and used that cash to make my monthly payment $120.

My coworker used his KTAC insurance when his outdoor boiler burnt to the ground and took his B3200 with it. $250 deductible and he had a brand new machine in 2 weeks.

Tractor_Chunks · Dec 5, 2019

I really appreciate the input Paul.

PaulL said:
I suspect this is true, as it's common wisdom on the internet that the Kubota hydraulics are better. But I've seen people online running two functions on a JD just fine, so I suspect you get used to whatever you own. Neither is a bad tractor.

Bouncy when operating, or bouncy when driving over rough terrain? Assuming it was when operating, then easy solution is to run lower RPM. More RPM = more hydraulic flow, until you get used to things it's easier to run lower RPM and then everything is just a bit slower and more controlled.

Bouncy when operating. It was smoother at low rpm. I was playing around with the rpm's and the loader, seeing how the speed changed.

PaulL said:
I'd say you need to stop comparing the two, unless you'd seriously change your order at this point (I'd guess you wouldn't). There are things that the JD does better, and things the Kubota does better. To me the JD actually sits between the BX and the B2601, so if you spend too long looking at it you'll realise it's a bit bigger and a bit more powerful. But then, if you wanted a bit bigger and more powerful tractor you could look at the B2601, which is a bit bigger and more powerful than the JD1025R. Keep doing that and you'll end up on an M-series machine. So long as it does what you need in your usage, don't worry about whether some other machine might do some specific task a little better - you'll never notice once it's home. The only thing I'd say is that if you think the BX is a bit too small, deal with that now. Everything else, you'll learn to live with.
Decide whether the BX is big enough for you. If you're not concerned on size (and sounds like you're not), then just get it.

For ~90% of what I'll do with it, smaller will probably be better. There will be situations where I'll be frustrated that I can't move a pallet or lift a log. A full pallet of salt weights 2500lb, and no compact is going to move that... My ground contact applications are going to be on fairly small lots - I think smaller will be more important than stronger. I'm sure there will be times that I wish maybe I had a B2650 or something, but the $10k cost increase for that TLB just wouldn't make sense for me and I feel the extra size might actually cause me trouble in some situations. Maybe I'm just trying to justify the smaller machine, but it seems like most people are stepping up to the B after 2-3 acres of woody terrain, whereas I'm working on maybe a combined 1 acre of residential area.

PaulL said:
And really, the dealer's done a lot of work for you. You won't feel good walking away from that deal at this point, it'll be an argument and a bad taste. If it weren't for the delay you wouldn't even be thinking about changing, and he's going to give you a deal to compensate for the delay. Focus on the cheap implements you're getting, and all the great stuff you'll be able to do. I hear JD implements are expensive, and of course it's harder to share implements with neighbours due to non-standard attach (unless your neighbours have a JD, in which case, you probably should get a JD too), whereas the SSQA is more standard for people with different sorts of tractors.

Agreed, but I also wouldn't feel good if I didn't express my disappointment to him and ask him to make it right, and also redo all my research to make sure I was doing the right thing. I priced out the same full list of implements with the JD dealer, and there wasn't much pricing difference. Some were higher, some were lower. It was about even until I asked about a 48" aerator and a 60" sweeper, then JD got $2500 more expensive on those two items alone. None of my neighbors have tractors. I've seen maybe one riding mower, and saw one small contractor using a BX25 once. I'm going to be an oddity, and I think everyone is going to be borrowing from me

jkcolo22 · Dec 5, 2019

chimpywrench said:
I really appreciate the input Paul.

Bouncy when operating. It was smoother at low rpm. I was playing around with the rpm's and the loader, seeing how the speed changed.

For ~90% of what I'll do with it, smaller will probably be better. There will be situations where I'll be frustrated that I can't move a pallet or lift a log. A full pallet of salt weights 2500lb, and no compact is going to move that... My ground contact applications are going to be on fairly small lots - I think smaller will be more important than stronger. I'm sure there will be times that I wish maybe I had a B2650 or something, but the $10k cost increase for that TLB just wouldn't make sense for me and I feel the extra size might actually cause me trouble in some situations. Maybe I'm just trying to justify the smaller machine, but it seems like most people are stepping up to the B after 2-3 acres of woody terrain, whereas I'm working on maybe a combined 1 acre of residential area.

Agreed, but I also wouldn't feel good if I didn't express my disappointment to him and ask him to make it right, and also redo all my research to make sure I was doing the right thing. I priced out the same full list of implements with the JD dealer, and there wasn't much pricing difference. Some were higher, some were lower. It was about even until I asked about a 48" aerator and a 60" sweeper, then JD got $2500 more expensive on those two items alone. None of my neighbors have tractors. I've seen maybe one riding mower, and saw one small contractor using a BX25 once. I'm going to be an oddity, and I think everyone is going to be borrowing from me

Don’t loan your tractor out. You’ll quickly find out that there is a steep learning curve.

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Tractor_Chunks · Dec 5, 2019

jkcolo22 said:
Don’t loan your tractor out. You’ll quickly find out that there is a steep learning curve.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I have 3 people, (two who work for me, and one very close friend friend/neighbor) who will definitely be using it. I know them to be careful and conscientious. Maybe they won't be running the tiller or doing stressful things, but the basic functions are easy to show to someone. I think a novice can probably do a lot, so long as you draw the line at engaging the PTO. Maybe explain to them how not to drag/stress the loader bucket. I don't see myself 'loaning it out', where I don't have any oversight. If you have more to say about it, I'd sure like to hear it.

PaulL · Dec 5, 2019

On size, I have a bit less than 1 acre, and I'm upgrading from a BX to a B2601. Property size doesn't drive tractor size, the tasks you're doing do. You have work to do off property that "justify" it to the extent that it needs justification.
Not much difference in price or size, quite a big difference in capability (refer https://www.orangetractortalks.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37655)

For me, I often move things around with the 3ph - pallets of pavers and the like (not full pallets obviously, no compact will lift that). The BX doesn't lift a lot on the 3ph, the B lifts nearly twice as much. Most other measures the B is about 30% more.

The actual size of the machine is very very similar, turning circle similar (but you have to use the wheel brakes), and because the wheels are a lot larger the ground pressure on a B can actually be less than a BX.

The geometry of the 3ph on the B is better - it's a taller tractor so there's more lift. This matters if you want to run something like a small post hole borer - the BX has real trouble getting enough range of motion. Then again, a B is still a pretty small tractor to run a post hole borer.

I do find that I max out the loader on my BX - for example last weekend I helped a neighbour by lifting one end of a stack of timber whilst he pulled his trailer out from under. The BX couldn't quite lift it height wise or weight wise. But we unstacked a bit off the top, then we were OK. A B would have lifted it, but then again, there'd be other piles of timber a bit larger that I needed to unstack part of - whatever size machine you have there'll be tasks that are just a bit bigger. I've also gotten good at improvising by things like putting a ramp of dirt under the front wheels to give a bit more height when dumping into a bin - you learn tricks of the trade over time.

I believe the backhoe on the B is quite a bit better, do I recall that it pivots a greater arc, and is therefore quite a bit more useful? Worth checking.

For me the 3 speed transmission is quite a big deal, I drive up the road to help others out, and I sometimes do a quick mow to tidy the lawn that I do full speed on the BX, and could go a bit faster with a B.

If you're doing ground engaging tasks the position control is quite important, and the BX lacks it. I make do since my 3ph mostly goes all the way up, or all the way down. But if you're trying to plow, grade, till or level a position control makes a big difference. Sounds like you're going to be doing landscaping work, so that could be important to you.

Again I'd come back to the BX probably being all the machine you need, and way better than no machine. If you don't spend time comparing to other machines you'll never miss a feature that you didn't know you could have had. You could go a bit larger to the JD1025R, or a bit larger again to a B2601, and there'd still be tasks that you couldn't quite do. Such is life.

On loaning machines, I normally loan me with the machine, because I like driving my tractor. But I also accept that when I loan things they get broken, and I may have to fix them (including paying to fix them). That's sometimes the price of being a good neighbour. Most neighbours I go do the work - a lot of them are older anyway and can't run the chainsaw or chipper or what have you. The guy down the end is 83, and was a dairy farmer for most of his life. He borrows the tractor and uses it himself. He's hard on equipment (farmers often are), but he's a nice guy, and he has a bunch of tools I borrow like a cutoff saw when I do steel work. Swings and roundabouts. The main thing is never getting into a fight with neighbours about tools. If you can't handle them breaking it, then don't lend it. You'll have your neighbours for a long time and need them for something one day, you don't want to be running a vendetta against them (I say this having observed how my in-laws interact with their neighbours, and we've sworn to never be like that).

Tractor_Chunks · Dec 5, 2019

PaulL said:
On size, I have a bit less than 1 acre, and I'm upgrading from a BX to a B2601. Property size doesn't drive tractor size, the tasks you're doing do. You have work to do off property that "justify" it to the extent that it needs justification.
Not much difference in price or size, quite a big difference in capability (refer https://www.orangetractortalks.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37655)

I saw your chart there a while back and spent some time pouring over it. Thanks for doing that work, I'm sure it has helped a lot of people.

PaulL said:
The actual size of the machine is very very similar, turning circle similar (but you have to use the wheel brakes), and because the wheels are a lot larger the ground pressure on a B can actually be less than a BX.

I suspect 10% wider starts to be noticeable in tight areas. There are some sidewalks in my area that the BX will be able to drive down, but B's can't without a tire off the sidewalk. The size difference seems small just looking at the base machines, but when you add the loader and backhoe, it looks like the B's become substantially longer.

PaulL said:
The geometry of the 3ph on the B is better - it's a taller tractor so there's more lift. This matters if you want to run something like a small post hole borer - the BX has real trouble getting enough range of motion. Then again, a B is still a pretty small tractor to run a post hole borer.

Definitely no plans for a post hole borer. No fences long enough in my area for that to be worth it. Would you believe that I use my Dewalt 60V joist drill to run earth augers? If I remember correctly, the BX actually beats the 1025r in 3ph capacity, and maybe throw?

PaulL said:
I do find that I max out the loader on my BX - for example last weekend I helped a neighbour by lifting one end of a stack of timber whilst he pulled his trailer out from under. The BX couldn't quite lift it height wise or weight wise. But we unstacked a bit off the top, then we were OK. A B would have lifted it, but then again, there'd be other piles of timber a bit larger that I needed to unstack part of - whatever size machine you have there'll be tasks that are just a bit bigger. I've also gotten good at improvising by things like putting a ramp of dirt under the front wheels to give a bit more height when dumping into a bin - you learn tricks of the trade over time.

Loader capacity has been my biggest concern. I just keep coming back to the fact that it will so rarely be an issue, and the cost to substantially increase loader capacity is very high. I'm still going to end up paying someone to dropoff heavy pallets and place it for me using their all-terrain forklift. So long as the BX can scoop buckets of dirt and gravel, I should be ok. If the BX loader isn't strong enough for some digging and mostly scooping already loosened material, I'll be quite unhappy. I suspect the number of times that loader capacity will cause an issue are few enough that I can sort them out in unique ways, as you've noted. If I start having frequent loader issues, maybe I need a skid steer next?

PaulL said:
I believe the backhoe on the B is quite a bit better, do I recall that it pivots a greater arc, and is therefore quite a bit more useful? Worth checking.

The BH70 on the B2301/2601 is the same 140deg swing. The BH77 on the B2650/3350 gets you that awesome 180deg swing, but I think that comes at the cost of (besides the almost $3k greater cost) the backhoe sticking out significantly compared to the BX backhoe. The angle of departure is a bit worse on the B2601 and much worse on the B2650. I suspect there are driveways where I'd scrape the BH77 going in and out. It looks like the BX backhoe is easier to get on and off too, but it isn't a huge difference.

PaulL said:
For me the 3 speed transmission is quite a big deal, I drive up the road to help others out, and I sometimes do a quick mow to tidy the lawn that I do full speed on the BX, and could go a bit faster with a B.

Agreed, that's a good upgrade. How long a drive are you making? I actually don't have any yards where I'm really planning to use the tractor as a mower. The yards are just so tiny, I'll likely just keep using electric walk-behind mowers, unless I know I've got multiple yards to mow at once. However, I'm hoping the BX will make a big difference in leaf cleanup. Manual bagging costs me over 100 man-hours per year now, and that keeps growing every year with more properties. I already bought a leaf vac to connect to the mower deck.

PaulL said:
If you're doing ground engaging tasks the position control is quite important, and the BX lacks it. I make do since my 3ph mostly goes all the way up, or all the way down. But if you're trying to plow, grade, till or level a position control makes a big difference. Sounds like you're going to be doing landscaping work, so that could be important to you.

I keep hearing conflicting statements here. Some people say it's a huge deal, some people say it's not a big deal. My guess is that it's probably something in between - really nice to have the position control, but perfectly manageable without it. Does that sound right?

PaulL said:
Again I'd come back to the BX probably being all the machine you need, and way better than no machine. If you don't spend time comparing to other machines you'll never miss a feature that you didn't know you could have had. You could go a bit larger to the JD1025R, or a bit larger again to a B2601, and there'd still be tasks that you couldn't quite do. Such is life.

I've seen the amazing resale value retention that these machines have. I'm actually a little more worried about how many attachments I might be investing in that are machine-specific. I've been trying to make sure I choose the somewhat heavier ones that would still be good for a bigger machine, so if I ended up going bigger, I'd still keep most of the attachments. Seems the most expensive stuff, like the rotary broom, would not transfer. Those expensive items, like the rotary broom, are also much more expensive on the B series - not sure why.

PaulL said:
On loaning machines, I normally loan me with the machine, because I like driving my tractor. But I also accept that when I loan things they get broken, and I may have to fix them (including paying to fix them). That's sometimes the price of being a good neighbour. Most neighbours I go do the work - a lot of them are older anyway and can't run the chainsaw or chipper or what have you. The guy down the end is 83, and was a dairy farmer for most of his life. He borrows the tractor and uses it himself. He's hard on equipment (farmers often are), but he's a nice guy, and he has a bunch of tools I borrow like a cutoff saw when I do steel work. Swings and roundabouts. The main thing is never getting into a fight with neighbours about tools. If you can't handle them breaking it, then don't lend it. You'll have your neighbours for a long time and need them for something one day, you don't want to be running a vendetta against them (I say this having observed how my in-laws interact with their neighbours, and we've sworn to never be like that).

All sounds right to me

I really appreciate all your input. It's helping me work things out in my head.

PaulL · Dec 5, 2019

Always interested to kick ideas around with people. There's no right answer, and probably most times not even a right answer just for you. Most machines will do the job. My sister in law is very happy with her near new small Massey Ferguson, whenever I get on it I immediately start thinking how much worse it is than my 15 year old BX2350. The tractor you have is always better than the tractor you don't have, because it does real work.

Agree on the width, my recollection is that the JD is wider than the BX too. So if the B2601 is too wide, surely the JD 1025R is too?

I think the numbers on 3ph are somewhat dodgy, I'd be surprised if in real life the BX actually lifted more than the JD. But numbers are just numbers, the question is whether it lifts what you need it to. If you're mostly lifting implements, then the BX will lift any implement that's the right size to attach to a BX, it's a self fulfilling prophecy.

It's similar with the loader. If you don't have specific loads like a pallet that you need to lift, then as Neil from Messicks says, the BX will lift any load you put in the BX bucket. The B will lift any load you put in a B bucket. In real world use they don't feel different, the B is just getting the job done a bit faster. In my experience, a good operator getting a BX bucket properly full will do the job a lot faster than an inexperienced operator taking half or quarter bites at the job with a B. Skill is probably more important than machine most of the time. I wouldn't normally try to dig with a FEL, and you have a backhoe. But if you are digging hard soil with a FEL, then a piranha tooth bar would be worth looking at.

I dug out our hillside for my tractor shed, and I moved it all with a small Takeuchi mini-ex (1.6 tonne I think), and my BX with front end loader. It wasn't fast, but it was a hell of a lot faster than it would have been with a wheel barrow and shovel.

Position control - it's never been an issue for me, but I don't do a lot of ground engaging work. When I used a tiller I used it all the way down. When I levelled I mostly floated it. Pallet forks go up and down, not to a fixed position. I hear people say a box blade or rear blade needs to be set to a fixed position, but in my experience I'm always adjusting implements like that up and down a bit because the ground I'm working isn't level. As you say, some people swear they can't live without it, others no big deal. I feel like if you've never had it you can't miss it.

Attachments. Unless you get a much larger machine most will move across. A B takes basically the same attachments as a BX, if you lean towards the larger size / commercial model on most attachments you'll be fine I think. Attachments have reasonable resale as well.

On speed, it's not a long drive. I mow up the road, maybe a kilometre. It's important that you not point out that my reasons for needing a B2601 are somewhat shaky, I currently have financial approval from the household controller on the basis that essential requirements will only be met by me upgrading. On mowing in general, the BX is a mowing beast. It mows twice as fast and twice as wide as the ride on I replaced, it mows slopes that I'm not comfortable on, more importantly it happily eats things that would have broken that ride on. But on a small property you'd be stopping and starting a lot to get into corners. On our property I mow a bit less than an acre (the overall property is a bit more than an acre, but there's house and gardens). I like mowing with the BX, I disliked mowing with the old rideon (partially because it had a bagger and needed emptying, and fundamentally wouldn't mulch. The BX mulches reasonably well). I mowed with a push mower once. That took 2.5 hours. Never again.

Tractor_Chunks · Dec 5, 2019

The 1025r is 47.3" wide, whereas the BX23S is 45.1" wide. Some people actually complain about the narrow stance on the BX, but I have no hills to worry about. The B2301/2601 is pretty similar at 45.3/49" wide. The B2650/3350 makes a fairly good jump up to 53.7" wide. I guess the B2301 and the BX truly are the same footprint.

It's amazing the BX and B2301 are so similar, but there's a doubling in the 3 point lift. I wonder if the B2301 lifts at half the speed? I noticed the BX 3ph moves pretty fast.

So the B2301 looks really attractive, and then I go to start putting it together, and each item is much more expensive. The B2301 configuration comes out nearly $6k more (although with a more capable loader, backhoe, 3ph lift). If the dealer pricing is favorable, maybe it'll just be $5k more for the B2301 setup instead of the BX23S. Looking at attachments though, the 60" front sweeper for the B2301 is $6k instead of $3800. I don't know if the B2301 sweeper is way better or if the BX pricing is just way lower because of volume.

It seems like the BX is priced really really well, if you want your tractor to be a swiss army knife of things. The more you try to get that out of the bigger tractors, the cost really ramps up.

PaulL · Dec 6, 2019

I'm pretty sure there's a rebate on the B2301 at the moment. They don't sell well. But if 23hp is all you need, you could get a great price.

If you're getting a backhoe, I think the BX is better priced and integrated. However, the BX is a small tractor for a backhoe, it needs that subframe. I think the B series the backhoe just bolts up.

My understanding is that the BX is deliberately small and low, it's an easy step for someone coming from a lawn tractor. The small B is the tractor you can make for just a little more money, and with a more tractor profile (bigger wheels, more clearance). But it's in pretty much the same length/width dimensions. Therefore also more unstable - although it doesn't sound like you're on slopes much.

It's also more displacement at each HP level - so a bit more torque, perhaps more durability.

It's a very different sized machine height-wise. All the internet spec reviewing in the world doesn't really help you compare, you have to go sit on both. I sometimes worry the B is just too big for what I need, but it does do quite a bit more.

The 3ph I think is about leverage and pump. I don't believe it runs slower, it's just got better geometry I think. That low ground height and small wheels compromises some tractor things. My BX also takes a bit of a hammering when I lift heavy loads on the FEL - the front wheels really are very small. If you don't keep them well pumped up you can easily pinch your tyres onto the rims if you max out the loader - I run lowish pressure for mowing and am sometimes too lazy to pump up when I put the loader on. I'm pretty sure the front axles are lighter weight too.

I'd guess the B series sweeper is more commercial, I see those machines sweeping gravel on roads, I've never seen a BX doing that. But it's only a guess.

All this is really internet theorising, the BX23S is a great machine if you need a backhoe, I suspect even a B2301 optioned with a backhoe is quite a bit more expensive.

D2Cat · Dec 6, 2019

Chimpywrench, I sure hope you end up with a tractor you like.

If I spent this much time analyzing every purchase I probably wouldn't own a tractor. Make a list of absolutes and a list of desirable`s, go shopping and get it over with! To keep going over and second guessing yourself will make you ill.

jkcolo22 · Dec 6, 2019

chimpywrench said:
I have 3 people, (two who work for me, and one very close friend friend/neighbor) who will definitely be using it. I know them to be careful and conscientious. Maybe they won't be running the tiller or doing stressful things, but the basic functions are easy to show to someone. I think a novice can probably do a lot, so long as you draw the line at engaging the PTO. Maybe explain to them how not to drag/stress the loader bucket. I don't see myself 'loaning it out', where I don't have any oversight. If you have more to say about it, I'd sure like to hear it.

It’s hard to really put in perspective. Once you get behind the wheel (and the FEL controls), you’ll understand. I would actually say that FEL work near anything is the easiest way to tear something up (the tractor or nearby objects). There is also the very very thin line where rollover risk comes into play.

You can’t really adequately explain to someone how to operate a tractor. It’s something that comes only with experience.

I agree with the other poster that said they will loan their tractor for jobs to family/friends/neighbirs, but I come with the tractor.

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dirtydeed · Dec 6, 2019

last time I lent my tractor to a neighbor it came back with a full tank...

...of gasoline!

D2Cat · Dec 6, 2019

Last time I lent my tractor to a neighbor he asked to buy it, and did!

eliot3b4 · Dec 6, 2019

I get your frustration. I finally decided on the B2650 with the cab, snow blower, sweeper, rear blade, etc. The dealer had the tractor on the lot. He put turf tires on the machine, and I have waited and waited and waited with delivery dates promised and passes. Finally called the finance department and things moved quickly. After weeks of stressing over this, finally got the paperwork yesterday and a promised delivery of this morning at 8:30 am. Signed the paperwork for the tractor, etc., and called the salesman this morning. He said come to the dealership and we can go over the machine. I did a walk around, talked about the different controls, etc. Nothing really new, as I have read the owners manual online. I asked if the machine was going to be cleaned. The floor in the tractor is full of mud and dirt, and controls have grease on them and the machine was dirty. Mind you, I was promised 2 days it would get cleaned.

It is now 2:00 pm and no tractor. I've lost a day of snow removal and I can't get this time back. It is snowing, and I would like to finish cleaning up my yard, etc. without using my trade in tractor, which is way cleaner than the one I am buying that I saw this morning.

This entire buying a tractor has been a royal pain in the butt.

Tractor_Chunks · Dec 6, 2019

I drive myself crazy when I just need to buy one thing and can't help but apply the same scrutiny. There are lots of things I don't own because I couldn't get past the details....

DustyRusty · Dec 6, 2019

When problems arise, I have learned years ago, that if you keep dealing with the person at the bottom of the ladder that makes all the broken promises, it will take forever to resolve the issues. In these cases, I go right to the top person at the organization, which in many cases is the actual owner. The owners don't want to be dealing with problems, and send word down the line of command, to fix the problem and keep the customer happy. Go directly to the owner or general manager of the tractor store, and if that is who you have been dealing with, then find another dealer, because when the owner doesn't care, neither does anyone else within the dealership. Remember what Harry Truman said "the buck stops here". The owner of the dealership is ultimately responsible for the success or failure of the business!

jkcolo22 · Dec 6, 2019

dirtydeed said:
last time I lent my tractor to a neighbor it came back with a full tank...

...of gasoline!

Oof!

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Tractor_Chunks · Dec 6, 2019

PaulL said:
I'm pretty sure there's a rebate on the B2301 at the moment. They don't sell well. But if 23hp is all you need, you could get a great price.

If you're getting a backhoe, I think the BX is better priced and integrated. However, the BX is a small tractor for a backhoe, it needs that subframe. I think the B series the backhoe just bolts up.

The backhoe seems to be the elephant in the room for a lot of these comparison discussions. I think if the backhoe isn't a wanted/needed item, the comparison goes a lot differently. Once you want the backhoe, you're not just talking about another implement, you're talking about something that is going to be near 50% of the tractor price. If you need a backhoe but don't need the capabilities of the BH77, then you're basically paying a ton more for the increased capabilities of the B2650, because you have to spend those thousands more to get a backhoe. In other words, comparing a BX2380 to a B2650 isn't quite the same discussion as comparing a BX23S to a B2650+backhoe.

PaulL said:
I'd guess the B series sweeper is more commercial, I see those machines sweeping gravel on roads, I've never seen a BX doing that. But it's only a guess.

I should be going to see the BX sweeper in about an hour!

DustyRusty · Dec 6, 2019

I own a Kubota BX sweeper, and as much as I like it, it is the least used implement and if I had to do it over again, I wouldn't purchase it at all. It is nice to have, but when you consider the cost to use ratio, it is extremely expensive to own. Also, don't forget that the wheel kit is sold separately, and you definitely need the wheel kit to use the sweeper efficiently.

Tractor Purchase Not Working Out, Getting Stressed

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