Page time outs and delays

NHSleddog

NHSleddog

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I have been seeing a bunch of page load delays recently and I believe they will continue to get worse based on what I saw.

Watching the headers load, it looks like almost all of the delays are from 3rd party sites Google, and Doubleclick. Doubleclick for the banners and google for the analytics.

It is hard to explain to a non-IT person, but it is easy to understand by anyone.

Here is how it goes,
A user requests a resource from the site. The user and site want to communicate as securely as possible, so they first try to handshake at the highest level of encryption. To explain it, lets say there are only 10 types/levels and 10 is the most secure.
The server responds to the client,
Can you talk at level 10? No
Can you talk at level 9? No.
Can you talk at level 8? No.
Can you talk at level 7? YES - ok, here is what you are looking for and it will be encrypted at level 7 for you.

What I found,

The delay ISN'T the site to us or us to the site.
The delay is the handshake with the 3rd party and the foundation framework the site runs on. You can literally watch every element load from each provider and the time it takes in the headers and the IP of the sending server.

So here is how it works with the site/server to google,
Site (before page loads for the user) sends google a tracking code for analytics and doubleclick for the advertising.

Google says,
Can you talk at level 10? The site says No
Can you talk at level 9? The site says No
Can you talk at level 8? The site says No
Can you talk at level 7? The site says No
Can you talk at level 6? The site says No
Can you talk at level 5? The site says No
Can you talk at level 4? The site says YES )current site and framework)

Normally this happens so fast the users do not see the transaction however the newer google servers no longer support level 4 AND they have been shutting down old servers that still support it. As more old ones are replaced, the delays will increase in time and frequency.

So depending on the server and time that you hit it, it can cause a delay (handing off to another server) or an outright timeout if the hand-off didn't work.

If the site turned off all 3rd party handshakes it would enable it to continue to limp along at level 4 without the delays.
 
D

dochsml

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Jan 21, 2020
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18
Leonard, TX, USA
NHSleddog said:
I have been seeing a bunch of page load delays recently and I believe they will continue to get worse based on what I saw.

Watching the headers load, it looks like almost all of the delays are from 3rd party sites Google, and Doubleclick. Doubleclick for the banners and google for the analytics.

It is hard to explain to a non-IT person, but it is easy to understand by anyone.

Here is how it goes,
A user requests a resource from the site. The user and site want to communicate as securely as possible, so they first try to handshake at the highest level of encryption. To explain it, lets say there are only 10 types/levels and 10 is the most secure.
The server responds to the client,
Can you talk at level 10? No
Can you talk at level 9? No.
Can you talk at level 8? No.
Can you talk at level 7? YES - ok, here is what you are looking for and it will be encrypted at level 7 for you.

What I found,

The delay ISN'T the site to us or us to the site.
The delay is the handshake with the 3rd party and the foundation framework the site runs on. You can literally watch every element load from each provider and the time it takes in the headers and the IP of the sending server.

So here is how it works with the site/server to google,
Site (before page loads for the user) sends google a tracking code for analytics and doubleclick for the advertising.

Google says,
Can you talk at level 10? The site says No
Can you talk at level 9? The site says No
Can you talk at level 8? The site says No
Can you talk at level 7? The site says No
Can you talk at level 6? The site says No
Can you talk at level 5? The site says No
Can you talk at level 4? The site says YES )current site and framework)

Normally this happens so fast the users do not see the transaction however the newer google servers no longer support level 4 AND they have been shutting down old servers that still support it. As more old ones are replaced, the delays will increase in time and frequency.

So depending on the server and time that you hit it, it can cause a delay (handing off to another server) or an outright timeout if the hand-off didn't work.

If the site turned off all 3rd party handshakes it would enable it to continue to limp along at level 4 without the delays.
Click to expand...
Maybe someone wants to make sure all their ads are up before the rest of the page can load?
 
D

dochsml

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At least there is something Google doesn't already know that they have to ask for each and every time a site contacts them. Makes me feel a little better. I always figured that Google knew what I had for dinner last night without me telling them.
 
NHSleddog

NHSleddog

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dochsml said:
At least there is something Google doesn't already know that they have to ask for each and every time a site contacts them. Makes me feel a little better. I always figured that Google knew what I had for dinner last night without me telling them.
Click to expand...
They do. It is far scarier than that.

My son and I were talking about my auger project in the shop the other night. Just going over the pros and cons of the designs we were kicking around. I went on for a few minutes about not knowing the true flow rates and how the actual hydraulic motors were specified.

Yesterday he tells me he is seeing all kinds of ads for hydraulic augers, classes on hydraulics and hydraulic motor ads. All he had with him was his phone. No searching, no clicking, just the phone sitting there. THAT is scary.

I do not know which service was listening and using the data (it would take an Andriod propellerhead to figure that out).

If you live in a red flag state and have a smart phone, be careful about everything you say. Actually, if you have a smart phone, be very careful about everything you say about anything.
 
D

dochsml

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I'll have to start talking in code around my phone(s). I know the Echo that I got for Christmas a few years ago is now unplugged and stuffed in a cabinet.
 
BAP

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I run Adblock plus. No adds, no slow downs, no time outs, no delays here. Run it on my phone, windows laptop, IMac desktop.
 
NHSleddog

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BAP said:
I run Adblock plus. No adds, no slow downs, no time outs, no delays here. Run it on my phone, windows laptop, IMac desktop.
Click to expand...
Adblock has no effect on this issue, in fact it can cause its own delays. I run it here as well.

This isn't about our devices to the server, there are no delays there. This is the forum server to other 3rd party servers and the delays from cascading hand-shakes. You need to watch the headers load to see it. When I was watching the other day it was about 1 in 10 requests and the delays were generally the same group of IP's at google and one of the double-click aggregators .
 
BAP

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NHSleddog said:
Adblock has no effect on this issue, in fact it can cause its own delays. I run it here as well.

This isn't about our devices to the server, there are no delays there. This is the forum server to other 3rd party servers and the delays from cascading hand-shakes. You need to watch the headers load to see it. When I was watching the other day it was about 1 in 10 requests and the delays were generally the same group of IP's at google and one of the double-click aggregators .
Click to expand...
It must be something to do with your stuff, because there is no delay, no kick outs, no adds, no banners for me so I doubt it is a site issue.
 
NHSleddog

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BAP said:
It must be something to do with your stuff, because there is no delay, no kick outs, no adds, no banners for me so I doubt it is a site issue.
Click to expand...
This is obviously WAY over your head. No need to explain your setup, it has nothing to do with it.
 
mdhughes

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I don't see any delays with my setup. But my proxy server blocks a lot of stuff. I will have to try the site with one of my VMs that I don't care about and go around the proxy.
 
NHSleddog

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mdhughes said:
I don't see any delays with my setup. But my proxy server blocks a lot of stuff. I will have to try the site with one of my VMs that I don't care about and go around the proxy.
Click to expand...
This has nothing to do with the users (forum members) setup. This is the server that hosts the forum and 3rd party servers outside of it.

I can duplicate from the west coast, from the east coast, from a server in Vancouver as well as several servers in a datacenter that is local to me. I can do it with just about any browser with any configuration.

So far is is spotty (about 1 in 10) but it isn't linear. It is usually 1 second or so but I have seen it go beyond 10 seconds.

Watching it closer, I am also seeing DNS delays from the forum server for 3rd party links. The cause of that can come from several different places, without access to the server you can't really troubleshoot it.
 
Last edited:
mdhughes

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How are you seeing DNS delays on the forum server? Your browser would be doing the DNS lookup for links on the page, not the forum server.
 
NHSleddog

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mdhughes said:
How are you seeing DNS delays on the forum server? Your browser would be doing the DNS lookup for links on the page, not the forum server.
Click to expand...
That would depend on how the forum and the server was configured as well as the type of link.

In simple terms, content that arrives to you as content is already resolved. A link will be resolved locally. However there will be no delay witnessed in the delivery of a "link" as there was no DNS resolution prior to sending it.

Watch the page headers load as you move around the site.
 
Last edited:
BAP

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NHSleddog said:
This is obviously WAY over your head. No need to explain your setup, it has nothing to do with it.
Click to expand...
No need to be a jerk about it but that attitude has come across in your other posts that you are better than others on here.
 
NHSleddog

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BAP said:
No need to be a jerk about it but that attitude has come across in your other posts that you are better than others on here.
Click to expand...
Just for you BAP. I have no idea what your problem is with me. I am a new user here. I have shared mods, welcomed users and generally tried to lend a hand where I can. I have offered to help pay for a forum upgrade as well.

Jerk? You have told me to buy a membership (that I already purchased) before giving an opinion, you have told me to leave, for giving a opinion. And I am not the only person you have told to leave. Are there so many members here that you can just tell everyone you don't agree with to leave? Look up the definition of jerk.

Anyway no need for name calling. How about you just "ignore" my posts? Just click on my name and choose "ignore". And as an aside, stop telling people to leave, it reflects poorly on the whole community.
 
mdhughes

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NHSleddog said:
That would depend on how the forum and the server was configured as well as the type of link.

In simple terms, content that arrives to you as content is already resolved. A link will be resolved locally. However there will be no delay witnessed in the delivery of a "link" as there was no DNS resolution prior to sending it.

Watch the page headers load as you move around the site.
Click to expand...
I'm not following you, the server sends a HTML document to the browser, any links in the HTML are fetched though the browser, not the forum server.

Can you tell me the "type" of link you are talking about so I can uderstand what you are trying to say?
 
NHSleddog

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I didn't describe that well.

Any link sitting in your local browser is resolved by your local browser, usually your ISP.

The DNS delays I believe I can spot are server-side. When the server needs to resolve DNS addresses. Without access to the server logs, I could not say for sure, but based on the timing of some of the delays it is indicative of DNS resolution.

The other day I was watching with one of the network monitors that shows the headers, the object loading times, sources and routes. For the most part it was solid and fast and repeatable, but there were times when you would see delays in the loading. For the most part the delays were SSL handshakes.
 
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