My next project probably is a Log Arch

crmorse · Feb 14, 2020

A while ago I built a capstan log winch(link is to another's build but my pics are in there too). It's had a few revisions since then but I think it's finally up to the task to start actually pulling some logs.

Good thing too because we're in the process of building our own house and I've made the foolish decision to try and make my own hardwood flooring. Now, before you yell at me, this is why it might just work out: A) I'm already going to get a bandsaw mill for other reasons. B) I have nearly 2x the necessary amount of red oak that has blown down in storms this year from all the rains. And C) I'm already planning to get a nice heavy duty WoodMaster 18" planer/drum sander/moulder to make the interior moulding out of a big spalted maple that I lost in those same storms. An upgrade adds 3-sided moulding capabilities which allow me to make flooring boards in volume (albeit a lot of work).

Now here's the fly in the ointment.... all those big beautiful lovely oaks didn't fall down anywhere near the house... or even near my roads. They are on hillsides and in the valleys so getting them out is going to be a challenge.

Enter the log arch: So far, I like the LogRite Fetching Arch the best. What really sells me is their design that allows you to winch the arch up the hill and then mount a hitch to it. However, since theirs is priced crazy and I don't think I need quite as much size or capacity as theirs I can simplify the build a good bit and make one myself (helps that I've since learned how to weld).

I'm hoping my fellow capstan winch fans will chime in here as well as any other builders. Here's a thread over on Forestry Forum on a home build that's actually pretty similar and looks to have turned out really well.

I welcome any thoughts from the brain trust. My requirements are:

up to 24" diameter (realistically, most are <20")
max length of 16' but most will be 10-12'
narrow track and able to navigate rough terrain, especially steep slopes
1,000lbs max(ish)
design keeps as much of the log out of the mud as possible
able to pull for a decent distance. Most of my logs are up to 1/2mi away from my log yard

Here's a mini map of my place, the dots are red oak (red), chestnut oak (orange), and white oak (white) trees that I've already measured and made sure weren't rotted out. As you can see from the shading, some of those spots are pretty steep.

GreensvilleJay · Feb 15, 2020

yikes I choked at the $1800 price tag !!! Even if I had to buy all the steel and tires, maybe $200 out of my pocket.....

re: #3 track. It can be as wide as your tractor, no reason to make it narrower.

#4 consider a 'walking' beam with 2 tires each side. More stable,halves the weight per tire

options ?
I've seen 'mini' logging crane/carriers( real name escapes me....) would keep
logs clean, safer to transport. Use 12V electric winch to load.

I've got a couple mini 'farm wagons', $200 Canucks, setup as mobile 4by8 platforms,again, add a lift/winch..might work ?

DeepWoods · Feb 15, 2020

Enter the log arch: So far, I like the LogRite Fetching Arch the best. What really sells me is their design that allows you to winch the arch up the hill and then mount a hitch to it. However, since theirs is priced crazy and I don't think I need quite as much size or capacity as theirs I can simplify the build a good bit and make one myself (helps that I've since learned how to weld).

I'm hoping my fellow capstan winch fans will chime in here as well as any other builders. Here's a thread over on Forestry Forum on a home build that's actually pretty similar and looks to have turned out really well.

Go back to The Forestry Forum and search username deepwoods, and you can see the arch i built back in 2011. Maybe you can get more ideas for your project. I also used the logrite arch for my design as well. It has hauled any logs that I might have on our property.

Also, if your oaks grew on the hillsides as you mentioned, be aware that the trees will most likely have tension in the logs and my not dry straight without proper sawing tecniques. Something I learned on The Forestry Forum. Anyway , have fun with your build, and post some pictures here so we can see the results.

crmorse · Feb 15, 2020

Thanks DeepWoods, I'm pretty sure I've seen your post there but I"ll search to make sure.

Yes, I'm aware of the tension risks. So far I'm selecting trees that are very straight and thus slightly less likely. Since my primary use will be flooring I plan to cut them a bit oversized and will probably rip them narrower as well which I'm thinking should help limit cupping. I'm also planning to quarter saw most of them. (Of course I say that now, from what I've read, I'll probably change my mind after I see how much more work it is).

I found this boat trailer for sale on CL for cheap. I think it has all the material I'd need. It has nice spindles and new tires and I like that it's all closed tube steel so should make good material to work with. Bonus, it looks like the back two "joists" already have 1/2 the needed bend in them so I'd only have to saw & weld two more.

bcp · Feb 16, 2020

I've thought of making one by adding a long tongue to a front wheel drive VW rear axle. There are several models about like this one.

Bruce

mike paulson · Feb 16, 2020

Hey CR. Isn't this funny. I've just spent the last two weeks building a log arch to use with my Honda ATV. Just got done painting it this afternoon. I have areas of dead fall a d standing dead hardwoods, not to mention alot of Ash that has been affected by the Emerald Ash Borer. The log arch is to be used in areas I can't access with my tractor. These areas are marshy and I need the maneuverability of the ATV and a log arch that can be moved around by hand with nice fat floatation type tires. So that's what I built. My idea is getting logs to the swamp edge then pulling them across with the capstan. I've already pulled a number of nice lengths across the marsh using the capstan winch you helped me design. I'm having great results with the capstan winch and pull logs well over 100 ft away thru the woods right to the back of my Kubota tractor. I will post some pics tomorrow...

Yooper · Feb 17, 2020

I would be inclined to build one that is longer and use two tongs front and back to stabilize the log. Red oak is going to be heavy and I picture with the short arch the weight will cantilever pulling up on the hitch. Now you have the tail wagging the dog and dealing with this on hills is no joke.

Looking forward to seeing the progress of your build. Good luck!

crmorse · Feb 17, 2020

GreensvilleJay said:
re: #3 track. It can be as wide as your tractor, no reason to make it narrower.

#4 consider a 'walking' beam with 2 tires each side. More stable,halves the weight per tire

Good points, both. However, I think I'm going to try and keep the arch narrower since I'll need to get it down to places the tractor can't go. Less clearing required that way.

Backstory: most of my land was clearcut by the previous owner about 10-15yrs ago and not managed either so those areas are now dense 1-4" tickets of saplings. Getting through those areas is a lot of work until I can get some proper thinning done.

As for the walking beam, I'd considered that as well but I think I'd rather just go with larger tires or smaller logs than add that complexity. I don't see a need or anything close to those monster tires in the link. I think regular old 14 or 15" trailer tires will be fine for my needs.

DeepWoods said:
Go back to The Forestry Forum and search username deepwoods, and you can see the arch i built back in 2011. Maybe you can get more ideas for your project. I also used the logrite arch for my design as well. It has hauled any logs that I might have on our property.

I went back and searched and couldn't find it. I tried clicking your profile but it said I didn't have rights... not sure if that's because I'm a new member there or something else. Any chance you could dig up that thread for me?

mike paulson said:
Hey CR. Isn't this funny. I've just spent the last two weeks building a log arch to use with my Honda ATV. Just got done painting it this afternoon. I have areas of dead fall a d standing dead hardwoods, not to mention alot of Ash that has been affected by the Emerald Ash Borer. The log arch is to be used in areas I can't access with my tractor. These areas are marshy and I need the maneuverability of the ATV and a log arch that can be moved around by hand with nice fat floatation type tires. So that's what I built. My idea is getting logs to the swamp edge then pulling them across with the capstan. I've already pulled a number of nice lengths across the marsh using the capstan winch you helped me design. I'm having great results with the capstan winch and pull logs well over 100 ft away thru the woods right to the back of my Kubota tractor. I will post some pics tomorrow...

We're like twins separated like geography

I can't wait to see your pictures. Do post!

Yooper said:
I would be inclined to build one that is longer and use two tongs front and back to stabilize the log. Red oak is going to be heavy and I picture with the short arch the weight will cantilever pulling up on the hitch. Now you have the tail wagging the dog and dealing with this on hills is no joke.

Looking forward to seeing the progress of your build. Good luck!

Good point. I like the idea of their "lever action" for when towing up the hill, especially with a capstan winch where you need to release tension if you stop pulling. But your point is very valid too as I'll be towing these down hill. I guess I'll either need to reposition to log to get tongue weight or add a tag axle on the back of the log. Luckily, since I don't need long boards for flooring I can elect to just cut a log shorter if I get in a jam. Either way, good input, thanks!

GreensvilleJay · Feb 17, 2020

re: walking beam. They are easy to make and give great stability,especially if winching them. You can also use 'low profile' tires with them, to save height yet have more than ampla carrying capacity.

Have a look at 'log forwarders' or whatever they call them. The key issue to me is having a stable load.

re: flooring. Milling your own sounds good BUT it is a LOT of work ! once logs are at the mill, cut into blanks, sticker and season them, recut to proper blanks, sticker and season, mill gooves and plane to thickness, sticker and season....then cut the ends and groove/tab them..... man I'm tired just typing the process as close as I can member...

..
You 'might' win by selling the logs or mill to slabs. then buy your flooring.

Jay

crmorse · Feb 17, 2020

GreensvilleJay said:
re: flooring. Milling your own sounds good BUT it is a LOT of work ! once logs are at the mill, cut into blanks, sticker and season them, recut to proper blanks, sticker and season, mill gooves and plane to thickness, sticker and season....then cut the ends and groove/tab them..... man I'm tired just typing the process as close as I can member...

Why would I need to sticker and season after each process? Once they are rough cut and dried (assuming properly) I can't see any reason why they would need to dry again. As for a lot of work, no argument there. As far as making it easier, I'm looking at a WoodMaster with a Pro Pack attachment (see link in OP) that lets the machine do all the planing, sanding, ripsawing, and finally moulding (granted, on separate passes). The 3 sided router is what finally sold me on the idea. On the last pass the machine cuts the back relief and the tongue and groove all at once (and via power feed). Seems like it would be a lot of time but other than humping boards back and forth (and I've got kids to help with that) not heavy labor. Maybe I'm just looking through rose colored glasses but that's how I roll anyway.

In any case, I've just hit a phase in the construction where I'm low on funds and long on time so construction is going to get slow for a while. Seems like a great opportunity to mill and stack some boards.

DeepWoods · Feb 17, 2020

crmorse said:
I went back and searched and couldn't find it. I tried clicking your profile but it said I didn't have rights... not sure if that's because I'm a new member there or something else. Any chance you could dig up that thread for me!

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,49642.0.html

This should get you to my build post on The Forestry Forum.

Not to get to far off topic for OTT, but I am right now in the process of making some T&G for a neighbor, and I do sticker the boards between processes to relieve stress caused by cutting and milling. Granted, I am using Red Pine, but the principles apply to oak as well. My pine was only air dried, so if your oak have seen a kiln, you may have better results.

GreensvilleJay · Feb 17, 2020

I was taught by a German master timber framer who said to always sticker after EVERY cut of the wood. So far, after 8 years, every board has been true.
Flooring mfrs 'cheat' by cutting blanks, sticker, then into a KILN until %MC is <8%. Ain't no way we 'regular' folks can do that. I use 1.5" stickers, indoors, tunnelled, weighted and 2-20" fans, slow speed. So far 8 years of great slabs.
You should be able to figure out your TRUE cost per square foot of flooring fairly easily. Take machine purchase prices, factor in hydro costs( runtime x KwH$),labour for every sick. That would include cutting/hauling from bush, rough cutting, stacking, MAKING STICKERS( you'll need MORE !!),actuals milling operations, storing, etc. Yes, there's a LOT of' touching of wood' and walking, 100os of trips,.....sigh. Decide how many sqft you need, add 15%. Now take total cost / sqft. Compare vs store bought materials. As for your labour rate, depends on where you are and what skilled trades get.Take 1/2 of an auto dealership shop cost for an example. Don't be fooled by 'my labours free'. It ain't ! Maybe you could have plowed a neighbours field, made an EASY $500.If I can make more doing something than a pro charges to do a job for me, I pay HIM to get dirty !

crmorse · Feb 17, 2020

GreensvilleJay said:
Decide how many sqft you need, add 15%. Now take total cost / sqft. Compare vs store bought materials. As for your labour rate, depends on where you are and what skilled trades get.Take 1/2 of an auto dealership shop cost for an example. Don't be fooled by 'my labours free'. It ain't ! Maybe you could have plowed a neighbours field, made an EASY $500.If I can make more doing something than a pro charges to do a job for me, I pay HIM to get dirty !

There is a lot of wisdom in there--that I didn't really want to hear. I'm not one that's usually guilty of the "my labor is free" mistake but in this case, I was... see my day job is salary and I'm on the computer all day so in the evenings I like to go out and work on the house. It's my escape and my exercise. Fun for me or not, your point that I could be doing anything else with my time hit home.

So, I took your advice. Since I already had a survey of the logs I wanted to cut up and where they were it was pretty easy for me to throw it in a spreadsheet and work it out.

Assuming I bought the sawmill and planer/moulder for no other purpose and it was completely used up after the venture (both false) it worked out to $4.65/sf. No surprise, that's pretty much the going rate for 3/4" hardwood.

When I apportioned the equipment according to how much it'll be used for just producing flooring the numbers work out even better. (I want the sawmill and planer for many other projects in the future) Granted there's a lot of assumptions on my part about how many sharpenings I can get out of the moulding knives, etc. and the cost per sharpening but on the grand scheme, that's a small proportion of the costs. I could be off 10x and it'd still work out.

So bottom line: I would never take this up as a business venture. But, as a pleasurable and worthy use of my free time when I want to be outside anyway, it checks out.

Here's my summary numbers:
Raw weight: ~80,000
Int1/4 BF: 11,400
less wastage: 8500 bf (I'm taking 25% loss right off the top since my logs tend to be smaller)
less shrinkage: 6800 bf

*even though I'm producing 3/4" flooring, I'm not adjusting for that assuming I'll lose 1/4" to inexperience, waste, warping, knots, rot, bugs, farts, skunks, woodpeckers, and just general stupidity.

Code:

Item	         Total	   Per BF   % of total
------------+----------+--------+-----------
Equipment	$10,200	$1.49	41%
Consumables	  2,556	$0.37	10%
Labor	      	 12,391	$1.81	49%
================================
TOTAL 	    $25,147	$3.68

50% labor sounds about right to me. Here's the consumables breakdown (life & cost are totals including all sharpenings):

Code:

Item				Life	Cost	Qty	Total
------------------------+----------+-----+----+------
Bandsaw Blades		2000 bf		86	6	$490
Chainsaw Chains		550 lf		86	2	180
Planer Blades		2500 bf 	260	3	711
Moulder Knives		10000 lf	520	1	355
Router Bits		3000 lf 	360	2	820
==============================================================
Total $2,556

My labor breakdown is more guesswork but generally along the lines of about 1hr each to drop a tree and buck it into 10-14' logs then 15 minutes each to winch them to a transport landing. Travel time & fuel I figured according to the original tree's distance from the log yard. I figured milling at 200bf/hr which is probably overly optimistic. Then 200bf/hr each for planing, ripsawing, and finally moulding.

skeets · Feb 17, 2020

Really who can put a price on doing something you enjoy?

GreensvilleJay · Feb 18, 2020

I'm pleased you 'did the math' exercise ! All too often we can get convinced 'it's a great idea' only to find out, um, ah, well....yesh that was a waste of time and money. I didn't want to 'break your balloon' , just open your eyes. Stuff always costs more, things always take longer...fact of life. Even though I have the bandsaw blade sharpener unit for my Norwood mill, I've never used it. It was quicker and easier to order a box of them than clear out the shop and learn the process. Oh well, one day...today would be good but there's 4" of white to deal with.....
As for putting a price on 'having fun'.. Aside from the money aspect, consider the time factor. Lets say from forest to finish, it takes you 3 months to make the sticks. It only takes a day to go buy them from a store. That's at least 2 months SOONER the flooring gets installed and makes the wife happy, buying new furniture....

If, IF, you're not under a time factor and NOTHING goes wrong, and the invetment makes sense, I'm all for it ! I really like milling, well cept for the old back complaining and hitting a buried 3/8 bolt with a brand new blade !
30 days until Spring !!

mike paulson · Feb 22, 2020

The trailer you have looks like a good start. One thing is you want to see what the wall thickness of the square tubing is. Boat trailers have very efficient design characteristics. Log archs can really take a hammering going through the woods. Depending on size and span I think you'd be looking for 3/16 the minimum. If your building a bigger arch maybe more. Of course design has alot to do with it..

crmorse · Feb 22, 2020

Good point, Mike. I hadn’t thought of that. I missed out on that first trailer but I’m looking at another one tomorrow. I’ll check for that. Worst case, I’ll double up the arch steel or add more bracing.

crmorse · Feb 26, 2020

I missed that trailer but got a better one instead. It’s a Four Winns with 3/16” wall tubing and a 3500# axle.

Last night, I got it chopped up into stock and axles.

Now I’m beginning the main arch. At first, I thought I could use the already formed bends in the ribs for the arch but they are only 15d and I needed 45 so I’m cutting a pie slice out and going to bend them inward and weld together. Marking out 22.5d turned out to be a little challenging around the bend but I was able to cheat around it by clamping a straight edge to the center and aligning off of that.

crmorse · Feb 27, 2020

I forgot to post my design. Here's roughly what I plan to build. I dimensioned everything in this plan based on what material is actually available in the donor trailer. Because of that, some of the proportions seem off. For example, the spine is 3x3" square tube and then the tension brace above it is 2"x3" tube. I looked back at the LogRite and I think they're only using 1.5" square. I'm going to reduce my 3" tube down to a 2" receiver so that all the adapters on the front can be standard 2" hitch parts. I already have a 2" hitch tow ring that I'll use for pulling and I'll build a drop tongue that goes to standard 2" ball.

I prefer to overbuild things (like most of us) but since this thing is mobile, meant to be manually operated, and will be used on slopes, I'm need to keep an eye on total weight too. I think in this case I'd rather risk having to beef it up more than build an anchor that's too heavy to use. So I'm going to build the basic frame and then decide on what bracing is actually needed. I'll pick up some smaller stock from the local steelyard if required.

mike paulson · Feb 28, 2020

Great design. Buying an old trailer is the way to go. I thought i would have the majority of the steel i needed when i started my build but ended up buying most of it at the local steel dealer.

My next project probably is a Log Arch

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