Not directly tractor related, but right to repair

Bmyers

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FTC revs up 'right to repair' fight with Harley-Davidson agreement



The FTC said in its complaint against Harley-Davidson, which was released at the same time as the consent agreement, that it had objected to language used by the motorcycle maker such as "the use of parts and service procedures other than Harley-Davidson approved parts and service procedures may void the limited warranty."

Under the agreement, Harley-Davidson agreed that it would not void warranties because the buyer used third-party parts or unauthorized service centers.
 

mcfarmall

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I thought that the Magnusen Moss Warranty Act covered the topic of aftermarket parts not voiding the warranty.
 
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Bmyers

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I thought that the Magnusen Moss Warranty Act covered the topic of aftermarket parts not voiding the warranty.
You are correct, except good luck in the past of getting it enforced. It appears that things may be changing. In addition, there has been the conflict between digital rights and MMWA on what is or is not covered. That appears to be shifting to the consumers favor, yet to early in the game to claim victory.
 

ccoon520

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Hopefully the FTC forces car manufacturers to display what the error code is on one of the 20 vehicle screens that are included in cars now adays rather than requiring an OBDII reader. It isn't like those screens are sandboxed and don't talk to the ECU. Only reason it isn't already there is because the manufacturers hope it drives people into dealerships for diagnostics rather than try and find it themselves under the guise of "safety" or not wanting further damage caused by incorrect repairs.
 

BruceP

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The "Right To Repair" conflict goes deeper than who can fix it.

Some manufacturers (John Deere...others) do not even release the details how to communicate with the computers in their machines. Without this information it is IMPOSSIBLE for anyone except authorized personal to work on the equipment.

I miss the days when a complete electronic schematic diagram and exploded mechanical diagrams were supplied when I purchased a product (TV, Radio, lawnmower...etc)
 
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Fordtech86

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Hopefully the FTC forces car manufacturers to display what the error code is on one of the 20 vehicle screens that are included in cars now adays rather than requiring an OBDII reader. It isn't like those screens are sandboxed and don't talk to the ECU. Only reason it isn't already there is because the manufacturers hope it drives people into dealerships for diagnostics rather than try and find it themselves under the guise of "safety" or not wanting further damage caused by incorrect repairs.
I agree! I love it when customers work on their own vehicles 😂

edit (and not directed at @ccoon520): the masses can’t/won’t work on their vehicles (and it’s increasing as the generations go by and vehicles get more complex)

Im sure I’m one of the younger guys here, but this is what I see everyday. I’m waiting for the electric cars…they send us an emergency hook (long Shepard hook), thats for your fellow tech to pull you away. They reassure us we won’t feel a thing if we have to be pulled away 😉

another edit 😂: the older generation of service techs are leaving, most of the newer generation doesn’t make it past working in the oil change dept. I can’t wait 😁
 
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lugbolt

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I agree! I love it when customers work on their own vehicles 😂

edit (and not directed at @ccoon520): the masses can’t/won’t work on their vehicles (and it’s increasing as the generations go by and vehicles get more complex)

Im sure I’m one of the younger guys here, but this is what I see everyday. I’m waiting for the electric cars…they send us an emergency hook (long Shepard hook), thats for your fellow tech to pull you away. They reassure us we won’t feel a thing if we have to be pulled away 😉

another edit 😂: the older generation of service techs are leaving, most of the newer generation doesn’t make it past working in the oil change dept. I can’t wait 😁

Lot of truth to that and I'll add to the last part.

The old guys, the GOOD techs, are leaving because of the many changes being forced upon them, of which they aren't willing to accept. And I respect that, because I are one, and did just that-left. But on a different set of circumstances. I could, I could afford it, and I left (semi-retired) with no plan on working. But got an offer I couldn't refuse, at a place that has been super great to work for. Anyway, when I was at the kubota shop, I saw a lot of customers come and go, was actively involved with a lot of them as a tech, writer, and manager all in one for a number of years. I saw the trends. In as late as the 1990's owners could change their own lawn mower belts with ease as long as they had a diagram. They could grease their own gauge wheels and deck spindles. They changed their own oil often, and honestly I liked it--all except the part about they never show up unless they need you to FIX something major. As time went on, over the last 30 or so years, people are more reluctant to do these things. I changed belts for years and years and still do, some of them are elementary, some not so much. People don't change their own oil, they pay us to do it (for the most part). As primarily a service tech now, I make the majority of my comission on easy jobs, e.g., oil changes, tire changes, transmission fluid flush/change, front differential, and accessory installs. Bigger jobs, transmission rebuilds, engine replacements/rebuilds, in some cases complete frame swaps, you usually lose on those. Going on flat rate of course, which assumes everything goes as planned, and it rarely does unless it's a routine service type job (oil changes...). A frame swap, pays 16.0 hours. So long as it's newish and clean, I can do it in 14.5-15. If it's used, I have to spend a couple hours cleaning it up, and if one bolt breaks off, I then lose money. Thus, I don't get too excited about those kinds of jobs. Particularly engines, since the majority of them have broken exhaust bolts to deal with, and they don't pay for that. So you have to estimate high, and hope they don't shop around. Sometimes they do, and you lose the job. And sometimes those end up paying more in the long run but you can't change their minds really. Anyway, times are changing. Now I'm playing with EV a lot more. In some ways they are simpler. In other ways they are more complex. No transmission/torque converter/clutch to have to deal with now, along with the supporting hardware (pumps, fluids, etc) but it's all replaced with an electric motor, a lot of wires, and a control unit or three. Testing wires is easy. Testing the motor isn't terribly hard, but keep in mind a lot of the EV motors have speed sensors, they have temp sensors, among other things on them just like a gas engine does. And they sometimes fail too. Speed sensor, if it fails, the unit goes into limp home mode and will go like 5 mph max. Makes for a long drive, potentially dangerous drive if you're cruising down the freeway at 5mph and cars are passing you at mach 2 like they do here. The biggest deal is the controller. There is no testing the controller, only the wiring and sensors going TO the controller. You test each sensor, then you test each wire (hundreds of them in some cases), then test the motor. If all tests good, then the controller is deemed to be 'bad' and if it is, and the unit is out of warranty, those controllers are NOT cheap to just "try" one, and a lot of times they are not returnable or rebuildable. People often say "EV's are simpler and don't fail and if they do, it won't cost as much" and there is some truth there, there is no gas engine or hydraulically controlled transmission to deal with, but there is all that wiring and controller(s) that can and do sometimes die. If a controller dies usually the vehicle will not move, it is just dead--as if your engine expired. So really you're just trading one set of issues for another. Older techs like myself, aren't excited about working on EV, but I'm forcing myself to learn it because it's being forced upon everyone. I don't agree with it but it looks like they're forcing us. i'm fighting it as much as I can but as a tech, I either learn it, or I find something else to do.

But now as gas/diesel engines have become so tightly controlled, the government really doesn't want you (or I) working on them unless we are trained as such, because with the right software and hardware, we (as untrained) can cause the engine to run in a different state of tune, which affects what and how it emits byproducts, which are VERY tightly controlled as said. Hence, what the government is doing to the small diesel shops, going after them for doing "deletes" and "off-road" "kits", as well as small speed shops that sell "race car" parts. They are pulling no stops either, they're going after TONS of them, such that at least one particular, popular vehicle that you could at one time buy almost every single part through the aftermarket to build one complete from the ground up, is seeing a loss of availability of certain items because the government is going after the companies selling and/or making those parts. They're effectively ruining an entire hobby, or lifestyle for some folks. But they don't care about you, they care about the air you breathe and they care more about votes and their own agenda than the air, or at least it seems that way.

So that brings up a subject. My older friend, who recently passed, owned a machine shop. He retired a few years ago and let the kids take over, and they do a good job of keeping things going. They've had to update everything to laser cutters and the sort, all up-to-date now. BUT they still also have some manual machinery, and nobody knows how to use it. So my friend "BOB" contacted me out of the blue and offered me a job over there full-time since I went to school to become a machinest way back when, before CNC became commonplace. I can do some CNC but very, very little and it's been so long that everything I learned is now long outdated, but using manual equipment is still with me to an extent. Bob still new that stuff, and was willing to get me back into it but I felt that the timing wasn't right and had to decline. And that brings up the subject of "old" gas cars. Not too many dealers will even work on an old gas car anymore. usually if you take something in that's more than about 10 years old they won't even touch it. But there is that opportunity for independent shops to fill that need. So in another 10 years from today, I wonder, if the skill set of the old mechanics, kinda like myself, who know how to rebuild carburetors and the like, is that going to be a skill that is no longer needed? I personally can't see older collectible stuff completely disappearing but that's just me, maybe that's my own attraction to the older vehicles causing a bias, I don't know.
 
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Dieseldonato

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Lot of truth to that and I'll add to the last part.

The old guys, the GOOD techs, are leaving because of the many changes being forced upon them, of which they aren't willing to accept. And I respect that, because I are one, and did just that-left. But on a different set of circumstances. I could, I could afford it, and I left (semi-retired) with no plan on working. But got an offer I couldn't refuse, at a place that has been super great to work for. Anyway, when I was at the kubota shop, I saw a lot of customers come and go, was actively involved with a lot of them as a tech, writer, and manager all in one for a number of years. I saw the trends. In as late as the 1990's owners could change their own lawn mower belts with ease as long as they had a diagram. They could grease their own gauge wheels and deck spindles. They changed their own oil often, and honestly I liked it--all except the part about they never show up unless they need you to FIX something major. As time went on, over the last 30 or so years, people are more reluctant to do these things. I changed belts for years and years and still do, some of them are elementary, some not so much. People don't change their own oil, they pay us to do it (for the most part). As primarily a service tech now, I make the majority of my comission on easy jobs, e.g., oil changes, tire changes, transmission fluid flush/change, front differential, and accessory installs. Bigger jobs, transmission rebuilds, engine replacements/rebuilds, in some cases complete frame swaps, you usually lose on those. Going on flat rate of course, which assumes everything goes as planned, and it rarely does unless it's a routine service type job (oil changes...). A frame swap, pays 16.0 hours. So long as it's newish and clean, I can do it in 14.5-15. If it's used, I have to spend a couple hours cleaning it up, and if one bolt breaks off, I then lose money. Thus, I don't get too excited about those kinds of jobs. Particularly engines, since the majority of them have broken exhaust bolts to deal with, and they don't pay for that. So you have to estimate high, and hope they don't shop around. Sometimes they do, and you lose the job. And sometimes those end up paying more in the long run but you can't change their minds really. Anyway, times are changing. Now I'm playing with EV a lot more. In some ways they are simpler. In other ways they are more complex. No transmission/torque converter/clutch to have to deal with now, along with the supporting hardware (pumps, fluids, etc) but it's all replaced with an electric motor, a lot of wires, and a control unit or three. Testing wires is easy. Testing the motor isn't terribly hard, but keep in mind a lot of the EV motors have speed sensors, they have temp sensors, among other things on them just like a gas engine does. And they sometimes fail too. Speed sensor, if it fails, the unit goes into limp home mode and will go like 5 mph max. Makes for a long drive, potentially dangerous drive if you're cruising down the freeway at 5mph and cars are passing you at mach 2 like they do here. The biggest deal is the controller. There is no testing the controller, only the wiring and sensors going TO the controller. You test each sensor, then you test each wire (hundreds of them in some cases), then test the motor. If all tests good, then the controller is deemed to be 'bad' and if it is, and the unit is out of warranty, those controllers are NOT cheap to just "try" one, and a lot of times they are not returnable or rebuildable. People often say "EV's are simpler and don't fail and if they do, it won't cost as much" and there is some truth there, there is no gas engine or hydraulically controlled transmission to deal with, but there is all that wiring and controller(s) that can and do sometimes die. If a controller dies usually the vehicle will not move, it is just dead--as if your engine expired. So really you're just trading one set of issues for another. Older techs like myself, aren't excited about working on EV, but I'm forcing myself to learn it because it's being forced upon everyone. I don't agree with it but it looks like they're forcing us. i'm fighting it as much as I can but as a tech, I either learn it, or I find something else to do.

But now as gas/diesel engines have become so tightly controlled, the government really doesn't want you (or I) working on them unless we are trained as such, because with the right software and hardware, we (as untrained) can cause the engine to run in a different state of tune, which affects what and how it emits byproducts, which are VERY tightly controlled as said. Hence, what the government is doing to the small diesel shops, going after them for doing "deletes" and "off-road" "kits", as well as small speed shops that sell "race car" parts. They are pulling no stops either, they're going after TONS of them, such that at least one particular, popular vehicle that you could at one time buy almost every single part through the aftermarket to build one complete from the ground up, is seeing a loss of availability of certain items because the government is going after the companies selling and/or making those parts. They're effectively ruining an entire hobby, or lifestyle for some folks. But they don't care about you, they care about the air you breathe and they care more about votes and their own agenda than the air, or at least it seems that way.

So that brings up a subject. My older friend, who recently passed, owned a machine shop. He retired a few years ago and let the kids take over, and they do a good job of keeping things going. They've had to update everything to laser cutters and the sort, all up-to-date now. BUT they still also have some manual machinery, and nobody knows how to use it. So my friend "BOB" contacted me out of the blue and offered me a job over there full-time since I went to school to become a machinest way back when, before CNC became commonplace. I can do some CNC but very, very little and it's been so long that everything I learned is now long outdated, but using manual equipment is still with me to an extent. Bob still new that stuff, and was willing to get me back into it but I felt that the timing wasn't right and had to decline. And that brings up the subject of "old" gas cars. Not too many dealers will even work on an old gas car anymore. usually if you take something in that's more than about 10 years old they won't even touch it. But there is that opportunity for independent shops to fill that need. So in another 10 years from today, I wonder, if the skill set of the old mechanics, kinda like myself, who know how to rebuild carburetors and the like, is that going to be a skill that is no longer needed? I personally can't see older collectible stuff completely disappearing but that's just me, maybe that's my own attraction to the older vehicles causing a bias, I don't know.
I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess you not one of the younger members. Lol.
Remember when fuel injection became common in the late 80/early 90s? I was still a kid then, both my uncles are mechanics and they complained something fierce about that modern junk.... I took to it quickly and easily. Things changed, but they are still about the same. Now we have cam phasers, turbos, nearly everything is ohc. Diesels got more complicated, but it's all taken in stride. Funniest thing I can say is the years I spent on the road. Started in a f800 service truck, crane and the full bit. Then didn't need such a big truck, so we down sized to a 3500 dodge dully. Then right before I quit I ended up with a lap top, multi meter and a hand full of sensors, often a plane ticket and off I went sorting problems. Still did rebuilds in the shop, but a lot of the issues were electronic and not the base engine. Don't get me wrong, the dodge still got its rounds when the pm contracts were due, but didn't have near the engine issues we used to see.
This electric powered world were being forced into, will just be another learning curve. That's all. I'm against it on principal, because the market should dictate when a technology is truly ready, not the governments agenda, but it is pretty cool stuff, even if it can't go 500 miles on a charge or the battery costs half a new vehicle to replace.
Now with the jd thing... total bs. But thats deere... same as warranty denial from not using oem parts. Technically can't deny the warranty, but darn sure they will find something wrong to blame the failure on related to the non oem part...
 

aaluck

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People don't change their own oil, they pay us to do it (for the most part).
I agree 100%.

I have always changed all of the oil in all of our vehicles. About two years ago I was doing my daughters car and realized that I was sick of squeezing myself under the car and lugging oil to the disposal site. Now everything but for my diesel is taken to a "quick lube" oil place. Costs about $7 more on average and saves me time and effort.
 
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Daren Todd

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I agree! I love it when customers work on their own vehicles 😂

edit (and not directed at @ccoon520): the masses can’t/won’t work on their vehicles (and it’s increasing as the generations go by and vehicles get more complex)

Im sure I’m one of the younger guys here, but this is what I see everyday. I’m waiting for the electric cars…they send us an emergency hook (long Shepard hook), thats for your fellow tech to pull you away. They reassure us we won’t feel a thing if we have to be pulled away 😉

another edit 😂: the older generation of service techs are leaving, most of the newer generation doesn’t make it past working in the oil change dept. I can’t wait 😁
Being a dealer tech is rough. Son in-law is a tech for Kia. Cars are getting increasingly more complex, and then the dealerships are paying less and less for warranty work.
 
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Daren Todd

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I agree 100%.

I have always changed all of the oil in all of our vehicles. About two years ago I was doing my daughters car and realized that I was sick of squeezing myself under the car and lugging oil to the disposal site. Now everything but for my diesel is taken to a "quick lube" oil place. Costs about $7 more on average and saves me time and effort.
I'm a mechanic and I take my vehicles to a quick lube place 😂🤣😂🤣🤣
 
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Freeheeler

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I work on my own stuff because I enjoy it, I use the money saved as an excuse to buy more tools, and I know it's done right. Back in the dark ages I worked after school and summers at a full service station, mostly pumping gas. I couldn't tell you how many times I'd offer to check the oil and the customer would say "I'm sure it's fine, I just had the oil changed." I'd check it anyway if they wanted and more often than not it'd be at least a quart low and sometimes you could tell they didn't even change out the oil filter. It was great for our station as those folks had us do their next oil change, but I quickly realized most shops just don't care to do things correctly. I trust myself to do it right. With you-tube, anyone can be an expert ;)
 
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Dieseldonato

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I work on my own stuff because I enjoy it, I use the money saved as an excuse to buy more tools, and I know it's done right. Back in the dark ages I worked after school and summers at a full service station, mostly pumping gas. I couldn't tell you how many times I'd offer to check the oil and the customer would say "I'm sure it's fine, I just had the oil changed." I'd check it anyway if they wanted and more often than not it'd be at least a quart low and sometimes you could tell they didn't even change out the oil filter. It was great for our station as those folks had us do their next oil change, but I quickly realized most shops just don't care to do things correctly. I trust myself to do it right. With you-tube, anyone can be an expert ;)
Sadly poor service happens all too often. Just recently we had a little Mitsubishi come into mu uncles shop. The cars making a funny noise.... classic rod bearing. Long time customer for repairs. The local quickly shop did her oil changes and inspections...... oil looked like tar, filter looked like it haven't been touched in years.
 

Ridelght

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I agree 100%.

I have always changed all of the oil in all of our vehicles. About two years ago I was doing my daughters car and realized that I was sick of squeezing myself under the car and lugging oil to the disposal site. Now everything but for my diesel is taken to a "quick lube" oil place. Costs about $7 more on average and saves me time and effort.
I am with you there. I came to this same realization after changing my own oil since the late 70's. No more trips to get rid of the old oil at the local Autoparts store either.
 
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Ridelght

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A recient RTR subject:
I bought a new 2020 Harley Sept of 2020. I was told then, can only use genuine Harley parts for everything. I said ok. Then I asked about a quick detach Windshield quote since the bike was still there. Was a crazy quote. I said never mind ill buy 1. The salesguy again stated ONLY GENUINE HARLEY PARTS FOR WARRANTY. I said what? he went on to tell me if I put anything on, mirrors whatever and they ever came loose and damaged something. Warranty would be void for the entire bike.
I had already paid for my bike, a check no financing. I said I think I changed my mind. On my way to my truck he came out and said they would put a windshield on as part of the deal.
I have the bike but I just actually received a card that my warranty expires this September 2 years from the date. They want me to renew it. Don't think so. O did follow everything the last 2 years, 1st service at 1000 miles etc...and that's another joke/fleecing of the customer. Primary, Transmission, oil and filter. $ 500.00.
Then they told me need again at 5000 miles. I thought that's a while... At 2500 miles I did the same full change with the same oil/filters. was 150 bucks all in tax as well. Parts guy asked why I was buying as he looked me up in the system I said I paid a lot for this and I want fresh oil in it each year. " Your Bike I guess, should wait till 5000 and bring it in " I said your right, my bike dude.
I love the bike, on the thread what do you ride I posted a pic. but Im not a Harley business fan at all. My only brand-new bike. Always bought used Hondas or Kawasaki's to cruise. It's a shame an American Company that squanders their money/bankruptcies a few times over their history resorts to this stuff.
 
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RBsingl

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The M-M act provides pretty good protection for using aftermarket parts as long as they meet the standards/specifications of the OEM. It has had a long history of peaks and lulls in its enforcement against manufacturers. It was seriously perverted in recent years by the specialty performance industry trying to hide behind it claiming their aftermarket power enhancement mods wouldn't impact the original warranty as it was protected under the M-M act. This is completely false and 180 degrees from the original intent of M-M, use of non-OEM replacement parts that meet spec are fine but adding parts to increase the original power aren't and never were intended to be protected.

If you boost the power of your in-warranty pickup by 25% and take out part of the powertrain, you have just learned the practical meaning of "pay to play". If the infotainment system screen dies, you will still have warranty coverage but you may still have a fight on your hands to prove the changes were in no way related to the failure. A big problem the FTC needs to get more serious about are customers buying used cars, supposedly still under the manufacturer warranty, and then finding out when a problem occurs that the previous owner changed the ECM programming and the powertrain and emissions warranties are now void.

Also, franchised dealers of the various brands aren't under the complete control of the manufacturer (part of our system of providing for market based competition) and this means an over-zealous dealer will try to convey their own policies about no aftermarket parts even when the manufacturer has no such policy. The dealer is also subject to M-M, just keep in mind that sometimes the problem is the local dealer and not the global corporation.

Some of the older GM vehicles would display error codes on the information screen but that has been a long time ago. Now manufacturers are into the "less info is better" mode and they are probably right because the average driver knows so little about their vehicle and its operation that they would be dangerous even equipped with a toy screwdriver and a foam rubber hammer.

Gauges have disappeared from many car platforms and those that are left are often "dummied down" to avoid worrying the driver. My 2018 GMC Denali diesel pickup has a fully functional oil pressure gauge but the temperature gauge is damped so that it reads dead center over a fairly wide range of operating temperature. My 2014 Cadillac ATS can't even display oil pressure while my 2016 Corvette and 2021 Camaro display both oil pressure and oil temperature in addition to coolant temp. Products aimed at "enthusiasts" will provide more information but with other platforms less info is better is the designer's mantra.

I do volunteer sports photography for the high school where my daughter just graduated and over the past school year I helped three students jump start their cars, they had zero idea how to do it. The first one I helped was about to connect the cables positive to negative between the vehicles which would have been quite ugly. I made sure my daughter knows her way around cars and she will be helping change the oil on the 2014 Cadillac ATS that she is using before heading off to college in August.

The more people know, the smarter they are as consumers but a lot of people buy fully into the ignorance is bliss mindset.
 
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Ridelght

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The M-M act provides pretty good protection for using aftermarket parts as long as they meet the standards/specifications of the OEM. It has had a long history of peaks and lulls in its enforcement against manufacturers. It was seriously perverted in recent years by the specialty performance industry trying to hide behind it claiming their aftermarket power enhancement mods wouldn't impact the original warranty as it was protected under the M-M act. This is completely false and 180 degrees from the original intent of M-M, use of non-OEM replacement parts that meet spec are fine but adding parts to increase the original power aren't and never were intended to be protected.

If you boost the power of your in-warranty pickup by 25% and take out part of the powertrain, you have just learned the practical meaning of "pay to play". If the infotainment system screen dies, you will still have warranty coverage but you may still have a fight on your hands to prove the changes were in no way related to the failure. A big problem the FTC needs to get more serious about are customers buying used cars, supposedly still under the manufacturer warranty, and then finding out when a problem occurs that the previous owner changed the ECM programming and the powertrain and emissions warranties are now void.

Also, franchised dealers of the various brands aren't under the complete control of the manufacturer (part of our system of providing for market based competition) and this means an over-zealous dealer will try to convey their own policies about no aftermarket parts even when the manufacturer has no such policy. The dealer is also subject to M-M, just keep in mind that sometimes the problem is the local dealer and not the global corporation.

Some of the older GM vehicles would display error codes on the information screen but that has been a long time ago. Now manufacturers are into the "less info is better" mode and they are probably right because the average driver knows so little about their vehicle and its operation that they would be dangerous even equipped with a toy screwdriver and a foam rubber hammer.

Gauges have disappeared from many car platforms and those that are left are often "dummied down" to avoid worrying the driver. My 2018 GMC Denali diesel pickup has a fully functional oil pressure gauge but the temperature gauge is damped so that it reads dead center over a fairly wide range of operating temperature. My 2014 Cadillac ATS can't even display oil pressure while my 2016 Corvette and 2021 Camaro display both oil pressure and oil temperature in addition to coolant temp. Products aimed at "enthusiasts" will provide more information but with other platforms less info is better is the designer's mantra.

I do volunteer sports photography for the high school where my daughter just graduated and over the past school year I helped three students jump start their cars, they had zero idea how to do it. The first one I helped was about to connect the cables positive to negative between the vehicles which would have been quite ugly. I made sure my daughter knows her way around cars and she will be helping change the oil on the 2014 Cadillac ATS that she is using before heading off to college in August.

The more people know, the smarter they are as consumers but a lot of people buy fully into the ignorance is bliss mindset.
Is your Camaro an SS ? Ive been looking at a 2022 ss2. Dealer wants a good price because of short supply and this has everything. I guess some are waiting on retrofit chips for heated seats and what not. This was built in Febuary nefore they ran out.
Jist wonder how younlike your 01
 

Ridelght

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Is your Camaro an SS ? Ive been looking at a 2022 ss2. Dealer wants a good price because of short supply and this has everything. I guess some are waiting on retrofit chips for heated seats and what not. This was built in Febuary nefore they ran out.
Jist wonder how younlike your 01
Sorry meant 2021