Electric

TheOldHokie

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Maybe it is different in Flamborough, but up here there's a monthly service charge for each service entrance. Cheaper to have one entrance and feed sub-panels in each outbuilding than to have separate services.
In this area 3000-4000 SF plus homes with 400A service are common.

When I built my shop i upgraded my existing 200A service to 400A. The meter is double lugged and feeds a new 200A service entrance for the shop as well as the old 200A service entrance for the house. I have excess capacity to burn at both panels.

The meter box upgrade was a very straight forward and inexpensive job - took the electrician about an hour to swap the enclosures and connect the new meter. POCO lineman cut the feed and sat in the truck drinking coffee while the electrician did the work :coffee:

Installing a separate meter for the shop would have put me in a different and more expensive service category.

Dan
 

jimh406

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400 Amp service is insanely large even though I’ve seen online that is becoming more common. I wonder what they heck they are using to need that big of a service unless it’s just having enough room to add multiple EV charging circuits and multiple on demand hot water heaters.

Most people are going out of their way to use less AC not more. Efficient appliances, heating/cooling, and LED lights reduces the usage. Meanwhile, it seems trendy people are using a lot more. I’d say eco friendly, but that power has to come from somewhere.
 

TheOldHokie

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400 Amp service is insanely large even though I’ve seen online that is becoming more common. I wonder what they heck they are using to need that big of a service unless it’s just having enough room to add multiple EV charging circuits and multiple on demand hot water heaters.

Most people are going out of their way to use less AC not more. Efficient appliances, heating/cooling, and LED lights reduces the usage. Meanwhile, it seems trendy people are using a lot more. I’d say eco friendly, but that power has to come from somewhere.
You are confusing capacity with usage.

Dan
 

GreensvilleJay

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Here , each meter has monthly fees, so treated as individuals while on same property.Guy 2 doors down, is a common setup. House on one meter ,shop another. He rents shop out..renter pays 100% of that hydro bill. Zero confusion about 'who used what'.
In the case of a rental property, I can see metering the EV plug separately. Say the current renter has a gas car, EV meter power will be zero(cept the basic fee,owner pays). new tenent has EV, pays the all EV meter charges.
Also we're on 'smart' meters...so can't do load shedding/sharing, PITA and the wallet !
 

Daren Todd

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Thank you for pointing this out. This area is FULL of rental properties. Every time a somewhat decently priced property comes up for sale, the investors are all over it like flies on stink. Then they rent 'em out. Over time the tenants pay the mortgage and then somewhere down the line the owner sells it, and the sale is the profit. That's how they get rich, or that's the plan anyway. Sometimes it doesn't pan out.

So with that, and the large number of rentals in this area, one of two things is going to have to happen to vehicle drivers. If the driver is in a rental such as in your case, that means that unless the owner (landlord) is willing to install a charging device, the vehicle is going to remain gas powered. Option #2, jack up the cost of rent so that it will offset the cost of installing charging device(s). If they end up doing like they are in Kalifornia, forcing people to go EV, then you can bet the rent will go up. Way up possibly.

At my place (I own) I have a 100A panel and 100A service. Utilities are underground, and it's 235' (IIRC) from the pole to the panel. I have no additional space in the panel for upgrade. So, I called a friend who runs his own electrician business, to inspect my wiring install in the shop--and while he was here, asked him to check into EV charging outlet. His cost estimate for installing a "post" was right around $10,000. They'll have to dig up the existing wire and conduit, replace all of that (which also means they'll have to dig up part of my driveway), then installation of the panel itself, among other things. I can't afford it and it looks like I won't be able to for a while to come. $10,000 est, probably higher now maybe $12,500. If I were renting the house out (which I am not), I'd have to consider how much time it would take to recoup that cost should I install a charging post. $12,500 is a chunk of change in my book. If I stretched it out over 2 years, I'd have to up the rent by $520/mo in order to pay for it. At 10 years, $104/mo rent increase.

So those who rent, look for a rent increase at some point, due to ev charging. Maybe not that much but you get the idea.

It's almost as if "they" are forcing the lower and middle class into things that they cannot afford. We are steadily seeing the effects of doing just that, a shrinking middle class. And more & more folks on government assistance. The more people that are on gov assistance, the more it will cost the gov, and the more it costs the gov, the more money they will want. My old boss used to say at some point the wagon sits because there ain't enough mules to pull it.
There are around 200 plus houses plus 60 duplexes in our neighborhood. Construction is still on going but should be finished by the end of the year. All owned by the same property manager, all rentals. To give you an idea who our landlord is. Owns half of conway and 1/3 of greenbrier. 😁😁😁😁

Can you imagine what kind of undertaking and cost that would be to install an ev station in each home they own. Cost would be in the millions.

That would be a big kiss off to whomever told them they had to do it. 😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣

How many shootings and stabbing you think would happen at some of the apartment complexes in town over charging stations. 🤔🤔🤔🤔

Yeah, there's a lot they need to figure out for this to be feasible.
 

Daren Todd

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Nope, you are making different assumptions. There is no reason to have capacity that you have no plan to use.
I think some of that is pre-emptive. Additions, shops, garages, ect..... Run it once and call it good.

Large houses like that require large AC units, so they would eat up some real-estate. Especially if they had multiple units.

Our last house had a 200amp service. Main panel, plus sub panel. Main ac unit took up 4 or 6 slots. Plus the alloted breakers for the subpanel. Can't remember exactly but it took up a good chunk of the main panel. then 5- 220 volt circuits, stove, dryer, hot water heater, mini split heat pump for the back sun porch, and a 50amp service for the welder in the garage. I had 4 free slots in the sub panel. Electrician still had to add a couple double 110 breakers to separate some double taps in the main panel.
 

lugbolt

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Here , each meter has monthly fees, so treated as individuals while on same property.Guy 2 doors down, is a common setup. House on one meter ,shop another. He rents shop out..renter pays 100% of that hydro bill. Zero confusion about 'who used what'.
In the case of a rental property, I can see metering the EV plug separately. Say the current renter has a gas car, EV meter power will be zero(cept the basic fee,owner pays). new tenent has EV, pays the all EV meter charges.
in other words the tenant pays all of it

they ( rentalproperty owners) don't eat any costs, they pass it onto the tenants. The owner might pay it, but the tenant pays it back, over time or all at once., but always pays it back. Sometimes they disguise it as an "extra fee" of sorts. Similar to a dealer service department adding in a "environmental fee"--that pays for shop towels, disposal of fluids, kitty litter, etc. It's all added to the repair order be it in a percentage or a flat fee depending on the business.

note that I may not agree with those practices, but it's the unfortunate truth of capitalism.
 

TheOldHokie

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I think some of that is pre-emptive. Additions, shops, garages, ect..... Run it once and call it good.

Large houses like that require large AC units, so they would eat up some real-estate. Especially if they had multiple units.

Our last house had a 200amp service. Main panel, plus sub panel. Main ac unit took up 4 or 6 slots. Plus the alloted breakers for the subpanel. Can't remember exactly but it took up a good chunk of the main panel. then 5- 220 volt circuits, stove, dryer, hot water heater, mini split heat pump for the back sun porch, and a 50amp service for the welder in the garage. I had 4 free slots in the sub panel. Electrician still had to add a couple double 110 breakers to separate some double taps in the main panel.
Its simply good planning to build in extra capacity up front. Its not expensive and gives you room to grow. The history of residential electrical usage in this country is clear. It has grown and there is every reason to believe it will continue to grow. I am old enough to have lived in homes that originally had a 60A service. That was fine at the time but laughable today.

When I built the 3000 SF shop I could have piggy backed it off the 200A residence but that was maxing that service out and I felt that was short short sighted. So after consultation with the POCO and some electrician friends I opted for two separate 200A service entrances at very little extra cost.

At that time my main concern was the existing and future machine tool loads in the shop. EV charging was not on my radar but fifteen years later it very much is and because I planned ahead for the unknown I am not boxed in. I could easily add multiple charging stations to go with twin 1000 HP Tesla roadsters for me and the wife o_O o_O o_O

Dan
 
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GreensvilleJay

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Apr 2, 2019
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The property owner pays for the installation and EV charger, the tenant pays for the actual EV hydro costs IF the tenant use the charger. seems fair to me. Property owner can 'write off' the cost of charger as it becomes a 'fixture' of the property( 'stays there'...) as well as monthly 'acct fee' if not being used.
Up here, renting in an apartment does NOT automatically give you a parking spot, though it did 40-50 years ago.