So You Really Think You Can Repair Your Tractor...

Lencho

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I agree - I like old machines - tractors, cars. My truck is an '81. When manufacturers lock down repairs it becomes more like a lease than ownership. Planned obsolescence is part of the modern business model.
 

Steve Neul

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B5200
Jun 3, 2017
130
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Terrell, TX
That topic showed up on another forum I visit. For a long time I have despised the electronics put on modern cars. I never gave it a thought about them doing it to farm equipment. I guess it was a good thing I turned down the opportunity to be given a farm forty years ago. I guess I will keep my 33 year old Kubota and my 58 year old Case.
 

lugbolt

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ZG127S-54
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DIY'ers in general face that uphill battle. You can barely rotate your own tires anymore because of the TPMS.

One auto manufacturer issued a statement a while back that basically said you don't own all of your car, that the manufacturer owns the software, and modifying it is a crime of some sorts. Well I hate to tell everyone this but I sold all my "newer" cars and trucks and went back about 20 years. Do I have to fix them sometimes? Yes. But they are stone reliable, paid for, and I OWN them-everything about them. Ain't near as fancy as new stuff though. Case in point. GF had a headlight go out on her 09 GMC Acadia. Bulb socket burnt, along with the harness and lens. $1500. For a headlight. I'm doing some reading on it, and it's common. Also common is the timing chain to wear (08-11 models), and it can't be replaced without dropping the engine out of the car. Average $5000-ish. Nope-I told her to trade it off as soon as possible. Stupid GM crap anyway.
 

KennedyFarmer

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L3901, with not enough attachments
Jun 8, 2015
290
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The problem isn't fixing the mechanical parts of the tractor. It's the electronics that break which creates an issue. Industry today, electronic components change weekly, daily, hourly. What was a good design today won't be in 2 years average. Manufactures get it in an get out on a boom and those components and the process to manufacture them is gone! :eek:

If you have good engineers they could design around this issues with creating common front ends for alot of these issues. Making technolgy replacements as easy as reloading some software on a new peice of hardware. But why do this...we have long lived in a throw away age, if its old get a new one. Big Ag has no desire to keep tractors long term. Small time famers are at the disadvantage.

I could go on an on about this topic the best you can do is avoid these complications as much as posable.

When i bought my car I asked for model without the LCD screen, the sales man said :eek: "you don't want the nice LCD screen with a backup camera, GPS etc?" (this was before Big Government mandated all cars install them) I said nope, "I don't want the LCD screen to break and then i lose, my HVAC, radio, GPS, camera, etc."
 

Tooljunkie

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The problem isn't fixing the mechanical parts of the tractor. It's the electronics that break which creates an issue. Industry today, electronic components change weekly, daily, hourly. What was a good design today won't be in 2 years average. Manufactures get it in an get out on a boom and those components and the process to manufacture them is gone! :eek:

If you have good engineers they could design around this issues with creating common front ends for alot of these issues. Making technolgy replacements as easy as reloading some software on a new peice of hardware. But why do this...we have long lived in a throw away age, if its old get a new one. Big Ag has no desire to keep tractors long term. Small time famers are at the disadvantage.

I could go on an on about this topic the best you can do is avoid these complications as much as posable.

When i bought my car I asked for model without the LCD screen, the sales man said :eek: "you don't want the nice LCD screen with a backup camera, GPS etc?" (this was before Big Government mandated all cars install them) I said nope, "I don't want the LCD screen to break and then i lose, my HVAC, radio, GPS, camera, etc."
So many years ago an older retired farmer i knew went to buy a new truck. Went to dealers and they were all the same. Too much plastic. "WHAT CAN YOU ACCOMPLISH WITH A PLASTIC TRUCK?? Got back in his 83 chevy and drove it until he passed.

The world is full of failing electronics. Covering all aspects of life. It will not improve. It will get worse.
Had all the farmers refused to purchase anything containing an ecm and continued to run their existing machines, the world would be a better place. Dont get me wrong, electronic controls are a wonderful thing,but the minimum standards need a massive overhaul. Its the revenuers or gubbernment allowing things to pass that obviously dont work in real world conditions.

Nowadays term warranty versus lifetime warranty difference is the label.
You pay for lifetime warranty but not lifetime quality.
 

Daren Todd

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That's something that chaps my fanny :mad: This comes down too a numbers game. Control the product. Then kill the support for the product when the newer better version comes out. Forces the consumer to to have to replace a good device over one bad component.

This is a normal practice from small electronics up to expensive equipment.
 

skeets

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BX 2360 /B2601
Oct 2, 2009
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SW Pa
I believe thats called planed obsolescence, the staple of industry
 

kghenson

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Oct 20, 2016
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Garretsville, ohio
I am sorry, you see this posted from some of us fossils all the time. I recall when cars where replaced every 2 or 3 years because they were worn out after 40 or 50 thousand miles. Exhaust system needed to be replaced every couple of years from lead. Plugs lasted 5-10 thousand miles, complete tune up every other oil change, setting timing by hand. So yeah now timing belts need replaced after 100,000 miles.

Yes give me the old days when we replaced cars at 40,000 miles.

Not for me, yes they are complicated, but they last for years now wth routine maintenance.

I recall in high school everyone wanted a 57 Chevy but they were had to find because they were 10 years old and there weren't many left on the road.i

And I remember what oil used to look like after 3,000 miles.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

KennedyFarmer

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L3901, with not enough attachments
Jun 8, 2015
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I am sorry, you see this posted from some of us fossils all the time. I recall when cars where replaced every 2 or 3 years because they were worn out after 40 or 50 thousand miles. Exhaust system needed to be replaced every couple of years from lead. Plugs lasted 5-10 thousand miles, complete tune up every other oil change, setting timing by hand. So yeah now timing belts need replaced after 100,000 miles.

Yes give me the old days when we replaced cars at 40,000 miles.

Not for me, yes they are complicated, but they last for years now wth routine maintenance.

I recall in high school everyone wanted a 57 Chevy but they were had to find because they were 10 years old and there weren't many left on the road.i

And I remember what oil used to look like after 3,000 miles.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Well said, i remember when i was younger if your car had 100,000 on it people were like :eek: now its just a number!
 

lugbolt

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ZG127S-54
Oct 15, 2015
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The electronics bother me more than anything. Self-driving cars, auto braking systems, electronic power steering, etc.

The 2 most important systems of an automobile are the steering and brakes. I don't want ANY electronics on either one of those. My mother's Focus EPS rack failed, lost all steering (could not turn the wheel). This stuff is electronically controlled, and thus it has an ECU. The ECU can be re-programmed, and/or "hacked"-and for someone who knows what they're doing, easily. How about lightning? I used to work for a place that serviced cop cars. One occasion we had a Crown Vic that was a victim of lightning. It was an '03 model, brand new at the time. Every single electric component had to be replaced, right down to bulbs and sockets. Of course that's a lot of juice going through it but it gives you an idea. Electronics are sensitive, and that sensitivity is what causes problems. The new tractors aren't any better, other than they still use hydraulically assisted steering instead of EPS.

Someone once said that electronics would be the nemesis of the human race. At some point, we will become useless as robots will be able to do everything we can, and then some.
 

maclean

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BX25D
Jun 25, 2014
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My friend's 10 year old Chevy wouldn't start last summer. We spent hours checking spark and fuel. Had it towed to the dealer. A door sensor failed and crashed the CAN bus and took out the computer. A door sensor...sheese.
 

KennedyFarmer

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This discussion died like a bad habbit. :confused: I found it very interesting and i think it is well worth venting our issues in a fourm like this one. If we fail to vent how would these companies ever know to improve? :p
 

helomech

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Apr 15, 2011
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The new vehicles are harder to work on, only if you don't have the right equipment. Older vehicles can't compete with newer vehicles in any way. I am a helicopter mechanic and computers have made things so much safer. We can now tell a part is wearing out long before it gets even close to bad. We can monitor every bearing for vibration and heat and get a reading after every flight. Sure they can be a pain sometimes, but I don't remember the last time I had a engine fail in flight or a bearing come apart in flight.
 

Tooljunkie

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The new vehicles are harder to work on, only if you don't have the right equipment. Older vehicles can't compete with newer vehicles in any way. I am a helicopter mechanic and computers have made things so much safer. We can now tell a part is wearing out long before it gets even close to bad. We can monitor every bearing for vibration and heat and get a reading after every flight. Sure they can be a pain sometimes, but I don't remember the last time I had a engine fail in flight or a bearing come apart in flight.
Exactly!
Computerize a machine to make it safer and more efficient.
My 1980 dodge pickup has 460,000 on the clock,93 chevy i just safetied has 550,000
But its the odometer that went that ,not the entire truck. Parts had to be replaced due to wear.

There was a few years where car manufacturers were witholding the software necessary from the diagnostic equipment manufacturers. Basically forcing owners to return to dealer for minor problems. Like the big guys were trying to choke out small shops. Snap-on and otc and a couple others built stuff for oem and started raising a ruckus,aslo fighting for right to repair.

Im going to stop here before i go off on a tyraid about fixing fords....
 

helomech

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Apr 15, 2011
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East Texas
Exactly!
Computerize a machine to make it safer and more efficient.
My 1980 dodge pickup has 460,000 on the clock,93 chevy i just safetied has 550,000
But its the odometer that went that ,not the entire truck. Parts had to be replaced due to wear.

There was a few years where car manufacturers were witholding the software necessary from the diagnostic equipment manufacturers. Basically forcing owners to return to dealer for minor problems. Like the big guys were trying to choke out small shops. Snap-on and otc and a couple others built stuff for oem and started raising a ruckus,aslo fighting for right to repair.

Im going to stop here before i go off on a tyraid about fixing fords....
Lots of repairs to get to that point I bet. I seen a toyota tundra that went one Million miles with no major parts replaced. No way a older vehicle would have done that.
 

dandeman

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BX2230, LA211 FEL, RCK60B Mower, GCK60BX Bagger; Ford 4000, bush hog, blade, etc
Aug 9, 2013
166
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18
Chapel Hill, NC
www.dan-de-man.net
Electronics quality can vary certainly as we all know of very reliable cars and those to stay away from.

My career was as a product development engineer for a major computer company and reliability engineering was a major part of any product design. That same company was a prime contractor to NASA and it's computers on the ground and in space played a major role during the Apollo missions. It was a two way street with much being learned from NASA about designing complex high reliability systems.

The least significant parts in any product design went through a qualification cycle to assure reliability for at least a 100,000 hour power on life cycle. More critical parts went far beyond this benchmark. Automotive application requirements based on temperature, humidity, altitude, vibration, power, contaminants etc required the electronics to pretty much meet what used to be referred to military spec comonents. As parts designed for military spec has dwindled to such a small percentage of production (i.e. consumer, automotive, industrial electronics parts has grown in orders of magnitude) the highest reliability parts now are generically referred to as automotive grade parts.

From automotive life cycle and related fields, a rule of thumb of correlating 100,000 miles in a vehicle to around 5000 hours engine run time has been used for many years.

A well designed vehicle to go at least 200,000 miles again be considered rule of thumb to be on average around 10,000 hours run time. If the lowest level of qualified electronic parts are being selected e.g. 100,000 hour qualified parts, then the life cycle expectation of electronics portion would be around 10 times the life cycle of the mechanical parts.

To be able to manufacture in the production volumes done with vehicles incorporating the use of electronics parts , the same concept of built-in diagnostic and self test capability that had to be built into large scale computer systems at the chip or module level in the '60s and matured into extensive use in the '70s are now in just about all significant scale electronics systems had to be similarly used in vehicles. My washer, dryer and electric stove have built in diagnostics. :<)

Out of economic necessity in the early days, I started doing my own mechanic work on my cars since the late '60s and continue to do so today, except for a couple of really major jobs I didn't want to deal with. Through that experience I have seen the amount of maintenance work needed to keep a car in good condition dwindle to a fraction of the amount of work in the '60s. And I've seen the life cycle of the relative few cars we've owned grow to a minimum expectation of at least 200,000 relatively trouble free miles to 300,000 miles. My current vehicles.. an 11 year old Toyota Prius and a 17 year old Toyota 4Runner 4x4. Electronic problems to date: zero Mechanical problems: a few but relatively minor. I think I can say it here in a Kubota forum, the Japanese manufacturers have a well earned reputation for building some pretty good stuff. The Prius is ridiculously simple to maintain, the drive train is mechanicly simpler than a standard vehicle, two electric motors and one planetary gear set does the work of a standard automotive transmission, not to mention generating and using stored power for better economy. btw battery life is averaging longer the typical automatic transmission life and is cheaper and easier to replace than most of today's typical automatic transmission removal & overhaul cost.

The skills and tools to be my own mechanic has changed as more and more electronics and sensors have found their way into vehicles.

As part of being able to work on my own vehicles, it has been a standard practice to buy the factory service manuals for those vehicles and equip myself with the relatively inexpensive diagnostic code readers (now my cell phone with an application and a bluetooth OBDII interface adapter). Same for the Kubota tractor, bought all the factory service manuals for the tractor and accessories.

I find the tractor manufacturers trying to prevent owners from maintaining their own equipment to be abhorrent practice. That was attempted with cars many years ago and laws were passed that forced the standardization most diagnostic code information and parts and documentation to be available not only to owners, but independent garages, rather than access being limited to authorized dealers. As cars have got to be more complex the "good" manufacturers have supported the education and dissemination of information and provide wholesaler parts distribution channels for maintaining their vehicles.

Examples for Toyota: http://www.autoshop101.com/
https://techinfo.toyota.com/techInf...echinfo.toyota.com%2Fpublic%2Fmain%2Fmdc.html

and certainly Kubota repairs and parts information is widely available on the internet

Anybody other manufacturer who doesn't do likewise. I boycott with my purchasing dollars.

There are really two different issues here, learning to deal with electronics in today's vehicles and the original topic in this thread, the restriction of parts, information, etc aimed toward preventing owner or independent garage maintenance and repair of equipment.
 
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BAP

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I can pretty much guarantee there will not be any antique vehicles or equipment of any kind with computers 50 years from now like there is now of vehicles from 50 years ago. You will not be able to find parts to fix them. Computers have made things much more easier and faster but complicated.
 
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bherron1

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May 7, 2017
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Clarks Hill SC USA
Any manufacture trying to stop the right to repair should be on the no buy list ASAP. Money talks and if we are stupid enough to buy from them we deserve what we get. THE SHAFT ! I just purchased the WSM from my Kubota dealer and can order any part I need. If that ever changes I will sell it.
 

tractor2017

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7030
Jul 18, 2017
11
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Ontario
When i went looking for a used tractor i wanted no fancy electronics,so i end up with a 1995 M7030 .Some say the old stuff does not last ,i have a 1950 something MF 4 cyl diesel . The hr meter was broke at 10,000 when i bought it,i have had it for 40 some years and it still runs fine. :rolleyes: