Alright I pulled one of the plugs from the hydraulic block, see pictures but I believe they are ORB fittings. Let me know if you think I should still have a shop confirm? Are there several types of orb fittings?
B8200 strange set up
- Thread starter Bigearl
- Start date
torch
Well-known member
Equipment
B7100HSD, B2789, B2550, B4672, 48" cultivator, homemade FEL and Cab
Looks like ORB. Maybe a touch longer than some plugs.
Do you have accurate calipers? And maybe thread pitch gauges? You could use a chart such as this to verify the threads and diameter:
http://fittingsandadapters.com/saej5straigt.html
(There's lot's more out there -- that was the first one on the list from Google).
Do you have accurate calipers? And maybe thread pitch gauges? You could use a chart such as this to verify the threads and diameter:
http://fittingsandadapters.com/saej5straigt.html
(There's lot's more out there -- that was the first one on the list from Google).
North Idaho Wolfman
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Lifetime Member
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L3450DT-GST, Woods FEL, B7100 HSD, FEL, 60" SB, 743 Bobcat with V2203, and more
Measure the size across the wide of the threads, send me a PM with your address and I'll send you some if I have them, and I should have them, I have a pretty good pile of o-ring boss fittings.
I confirmed today that the plug is bspp with o ring. I think my best bet is using a male bspp to male jic 37, then attaching a female swivel jic 37 with a 90 degree turn. Biggest conflict is the hst pedal as I only have 1.5 inches of clearance. Anyone know if I can remove my hst pedal and either bend it or weld in a jog to get more clearance?
torch
Well-known member
Equipment
B7100HSD, B2789, B2550, B4672, 48" cultivator, homemade FEL and Cab
How about a 90° adapter instead of 2 separate fittings? Something like this (in an appropriate size, of course):
https://www.dixonvalve.com/products...pter JIC Male 37° Flare x Male BSPP 90° Elbow
Torch,
Does that male BSPP end swivel? Reason I ask is because the Tank and PB ports are right on top of each other and I don't know if I could spin them both in without hitting each other. That's the thinking behind the male to male nipple, then I can spin on a female swivel. For the HST pedal conflict, I'm going to cut the pedal just past the pivot point, and weld in a piece of flat bar roughly 1 inch to create a jog. I think it will work well, and give me plenty of clearance for my hydraulic connections. I now believe this may have been the whole reason behind the strange set up, Kubota chose a poor spot for the hydraulic block.
Does that male BSPP end swivel? Reason I ask is because the Tank and PB ports are right on top of each other and I don't know if I could spin them both in without hitting each other. That's the thinking behind the male to male nipple, then I can spin on a female swivel. For the HST pedal conflict, I'm going to cut the pedal just past the pivot point, and weld in a piece of flat bar roughly 1 inch to create a jog. I think it will work well, and give me plenty of clearance for my hydraulic connections. I now believe this may have been the whole reason behind the strange set up, Kubota chose a poor spot for the hydraulic block.
torch
Well-known member
Equipment
B7100HSD, B2789, B2550, B4672, 48" cultivator, homemade FEL and Cab
No, it does not swivel. The BSPP side is threaded in nearly all the way, oriented to the direction that the outlet needs to face, then the nut is tightened to compress the o-ring and seal the joint.
When I built my FEL, the hoses all needed to turn 90° from the spool valve outlets, and I too had an interference issue. However, I found some long elbows that cleared the standard length elbows. I installed the standard, shorter elbows on the valve body first, then the longer ones. There was just enough clearance between the two.
Mine were ORB fittings, but I would think similar long 90° fittings should be available in BSPP thread too.
Yup, found some: https://www.discounthydraulichose.com/9059l.html
(here's the standard length from the same supplier: https://www.discounthydraulichose.com/9059.html)
When I built my FEL, the hoses all needed to turn 90° from the spool valve outlets, and I too had an interference issue. However, I found some long elbows that cleared the standard length elbows. I installed the standard, shorter elbows on the valve body first, then the longer ones. There was just enough clearance between the two.
Mine were ORB fittings, but I would think similar long 90° fittings should be available in BSPP thread too.
Yup, found some: https://www.discounthydraulichose.com/9059l.html
(here's the standard length from the same supplier: https://www.discounthydraulichose.com/9059.html)
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Well, the job is complete. Only thing to do now is start it up and check for leaks. Being that I had to dump all the fluid and I removed all the lines, do I have to worry about air in the system? Or will it vent itself? The biggest pain I had was the rear banjo bolt. I got a replacement through messicks, but the bolt was too short. I ended up re using that big old banjo bolt and capping off the two connections. Notice my hst pedal mod, it worked out perfect. I didn’t expect this job to be a big deal, but there was some time put into it. Check out the pics.
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North Idaho Wolfman
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L3450DT-GST, Woods FEL, B7100 HSD, FEL, 60" SB, 743 Bobcat with V2203, and more
Air will bleed itself out in nothing flat.
Make sure it's free flowing and not dead heading and you be great.
Wolfman, check this out. I went to start this morning for the first time. Once the engine fired up I heard a loud pop. I began working my blade up and down and left, then I noticed a pile of fluid on the floor. I immediately shut it down.
So the original big ass banjo bolt in the rear failed at start up. The head of the bolt blew off, and I lost over 3 gallons of fluid.
I’m back to finding the correct replacement factory banjo bolt, which messicks claims I have, but the bolt they sent me is too short. According to the parts diagram I need “bolt, joint 35” which measures approximately 2 inches end to end.
Also, I had the directional valve turned clockwise at start up, should there even have been pressure to the 3 point?
What went wrong?
Did I deadhead something, please explain?
Feeling frustrated!
So the original big ass banjo bolt in the rear failed at start up. The head of the bolt blew off, and I lost over 3 gallons of fluid.
I’m back to finding the correct replacement factory banjo bolt, which messicks claims I have, but the bolt they sent me is too short. According to the parts diagram I need “bolt, joint 35” which measures approximately 2 inches end to end.
Also, I had the directional valve turned clockwise at start up, should there even have been pressure to the 3 point?
What went wrong?
Did I deadhead something, please explain?
Feeling frustrated!
torch
Well-known member
Equipment
B7100HSD, B2789, B2550, B4672, 48" cultivator, homemade FEL and Cab
I think there is a strong possibility that you dead-headed the pump, causing the bolt to fail. If so, be thankful that the bolt head failed!
torch
Well-known member
Equipment
B7100HSD, B2789, B2550, B4672, 48" cultivator, homemade FEL and Cab
I've been looking at the manual for the 8200. Can you confirm your connections are as below?
If so, are you sure the spool valve is open center, with Power Beyond?
If so, are you sure the spool valve is open center, with Power Beyond?
Torch, can you explain deadheading to me? What could I have done differently?
So looking at the banjo bolt that failed, I believe it was home made and drilled out. It was drilled and tapped at the bolt head as this is where my blade used to get it’s supply. Between the bolt not having much wall thickness and being tapped, it’s easy to see why it failed.
Again though with the directional valve clockwise on the block, should there even be pressure back at the 3 point?
I’ve spent the better half of the day cleaning up my huge mess in the garage, and it doesn’t help that it’s only 14 degrees.
I need to get the correct banjo bolt, I hope I can get this resolved.
So looking at the banjo bolt that failed, I believe it was home made and drilled out. It was drilled and tapped at the bolt head as this is where my blade used to get it’s supply. Between the bolt not having much wall thickness and being tapped, it’s easy to see why it failed.
Again though with the directional valve clockwise on the block, should there even be pressure back at the 3 point?
I’ve spent the better half of the day cleaning up my huge mess in the garage, and it doesn’t help that it’s only 14 degrees.
I need to get the correct banjo bolt, I hope I can get this resolved.
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Torch, my loader valve is hooked up just as your picture shows. Pressure from the block goes to the inlet stamped “in”, the tank line goes to the outlet stamped “out”, and the power beyond goes to port stamped “pb”.
How would I know if it’s not an open center valve?
The setup prior had three lines as well.
The blade seemed to be working with up/down/left. The right cylinder wasn’t pushing but at that moment I went to shut it down.
How would I know if it’s not an open center valve?
The setup prior had three lines as well.
The blade seemed to be working with up/down/left. The right cylinder wasn’t pushing but at that moment I went to shut it down.
Russell King
Well-known member
Equipment
L185F, Modern Ag Competitor 4’ shredder, Rhino tiller, rear dirt scoop
Since you have a “too short” version of the banjo bolt, you may try to get a machine shop to make a longer version of the bolt. I would have them use high strength steel (like 4140) to hold up to the pressure with no worry
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Ok so I have my pb line hooked up to the neutral port, meaning I am always sending pressure to the 3 point even if the directional valve is set for the loader valve. Right? The only time the directional valve will be of use is if I wanted to bypass my loader valve then I would turn it counter clockwise.
On another note, looking at my loader valve tonight, I noticed that the new connections looked dry with no signs of leakage. However, below the working ports on the bottom of the unit, it was wet with fluid. This is new as I cleaned everything prior to assembly.
Between the broken banjo bolt today and now what looks to be a leaking loader valve, I’ve got to slow down.
Aside from finding the correct banjo bolt, should I remove the loader valve and have it inspected/rebuilt?
Thanks guys, I might have to get the snowblower ready...
On another note, looking at my loader valve tonight, I noticed that the new connections looked dry with no signs of leakage. However, below the working ports on the bottom of the unit, it was wet with fluid. This is new as I cleaned everything prior to assembly.
Between the broken banjo bolt today and now what looks to be a leaking loader valve, I’ve got to slow down.
Aside from finding the correct banjo bolt, should I remove the loader valve and have it inspected/rebuilt?
Thanks guys, I might have to get the snowblower ready...
torch
Well-known member
Equipment
B7100HSD, B2789, B2550, B4672, 48" cultivator, homemade FEL and Cab
Deadheading means that the flow does not return to the reservoir and there is no relief valve. The flow is completely cut off. The positive displacement hydraulic pump will increase pressure until something fails.
I'm not sure if you should have done anything differently, I'm trying to verify what you did first.
Yes, from the pictures, I have to agree that the banjo bolt may have been home made. And it is possible that it could fail at less than the designed working pressure of the system (as limited by the relief valve).
However, with an open centre system, the pressure should nominally be zero until and unless a spool valve is activated in the system. If I understand correctly, both the 3ph control and the FEL controls were all still in neutral when the bolt blew, correct? And the directional control valve (which is really just a by-pass valve) was closed -- ie: fully clockwise.
What should happen when the engine is started is:
Pump sends fluid to hydraulic block.
Directional valve is closed, forcing fluid to the FEL spool valves.
FEL spool valves are in neutral, so fluid is directed out PB port back to block.
Block sends fluid to 3ph spool valve.
3ph valve is in neutral, so it directs fluid back to the reservoir.
When the FEL control is operated, fluid no longer flows to the 3ph valve. The hitch cannot be raised while the FEL is being operated. Fluid flow is directed to one end of the appropriate FEL cylinder(s). Fluid from the *other* end of that/those cylinder(s) is forced back to the spool valve and returned to the reservoir via the "tank" line at the block.
When the 3ph valve is moved to the "raise" position, flow to the reservoir is cut off and directed to the 3ph lift cylinder. If the implement is too heavy, the pressure relief valve opens and dumps fluid into the reservoir instead. If the valve is in the lowering position, the fluid in the cylinder is dumped back into the reservoir.
SO: for that bolt to blow, something had to be preventing the fluid from returning to the reservoir. Either the 3ph was in the lift position and the implement was too heavy for the home-made bolt, or something is plugging up the 3ph spool valve circuit.
As described above, the directional control valve does not affect pressure at the 3ph valve, it only diverts flow to the FEL. If it is closed, and if the FEL ports are plugged, then it would deadhead the piping between the pump and the block, but not the 3ph.
torch
Well-known member
Equipment
B7100HSD, B2789, B2550, B4672, 48" cultivator, homemade FEL and Cab
Only if the loader valves are in the neutral position.
Yes.
While it is possible that you have some seepage from the loader valve, it is not the reason the banjo bolt broke. If any valving needs rebuilding, it will be at the 3ph valve. But, I am wondering about this comment:
What 2 connections??? Any chance you have capped off the return to the reservoir?
North Idaho Wolfman
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Staff member
Lifetime Member
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L3450DT-GST, Woods FEL, B7100 HSD, FEL, 60" SB, 743 Bobcat with V2203, and more
I think your homemade banjo bolt was made to supply fluid out the
end of the bolt and then back in on the side fitting, thus when you capped off the end and side it dead headed.
I'll bet they sold you 67111-37160
The bolt you want is P/N 67850-37160
end of the bolt and then back in on the side fitting, thus when you capped off the end and side it dead headed.
I'll bet they sold you 67111-37160
The bolt you want is P/N 67850-37160
Thanks guys for you help.
Torch, honestly I can’t remember as it happened so fast but the pop may have occurred right as I first activated the spool valve.
If you look back towards the beginning of this post, you will see that goofy banjo connection at the 3 point connection that used to send pressure into my loader spool valve, along with a power beyond connection.
The banjo bolt that failed had a very thin wall thickness compared to the new banjo bolt that I have from messicks.
Wolfman,
Not sure what that first part number is, but the second one you listed, saying the one I need is in fact the bolt sitting on my counter. It is too short.
About dead heading at the 3 point, regardless of it being plumbed up differently initially, the system was working perfect prior to this project.
Torch, honestly I can’t remember as it happened so fast but the pop may have occurred right as I first activated the spool valve.
If you look back towards the beginning of this post, you will see that goofy banjo connection at the 3 point connection that used to send pressure into my loader spool valve, along with a power beyond connection.
The banjo bolt that failed had a very thin wall thickness compared to the new banjo bolt that I have from messicks.
Wolfman,
Not sure what that first part number is, but the second one you listed, saying the one I need is in fact the bolt sitting on my counter. It is too short.
About dead heading at the 3 point, regardless of it being plumbed up differently initially, the system was working perfect prior to this project.