Outrigger damage

Eldubya

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I've got a B7800 tractor with the BH75 backhoe on it. Many times when I'm digging I'll snag onto a rock or a root and simply drag the tractor towards the hole. (yes, I try to go slow and careful, but it happens!)
I'm concerned that this puts too much stress on the outriggers.
What are your thoughts? Any signs of damage/wear I should be looking for?
 

SidecarFlip

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Generally a no-no and states that in the BH manual. You are imparting a lot of rotational stress on the main transmission casting and breaking that is huge bucks.
 

North Idaho Wolfman

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Outriggers are designed to support this kind of action/force, so I wouldn't worry too much. ;)
 

Eldubya

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Generally a no-no and states that in the BH manual. You are imparting a lot of rotational stress on the main transmission casting and breaking that is huge bucks.
What ? How are the stabilizers and the transmission even remotely connected?
 

SidecarFlip

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What ? How are the stabilizers and the transmission even remotely connected?

If it's sub frame mount no issue. If it's 3 point mount, moving the backhoe and dragging the stabilizers can impart a rotational movement to the transmission casting and possibly breaking it. I have a friend that had an L5030 that broke his transmission casting by doing just that and the fix was very expensive.

Sub frame mount, no issue. 3 point mount is an issue. I have no idea what you have you didn't state your mount.

With a 3 point mount, the rotational stress is directly applied to the lift arm attachment points which, are bolted to the lower transmission casting.

In reality even with a sub frame mount the stress is applied indirectly to the tansmission casting but is spread out over various points.

It's all connected together.
 
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dirtydeed

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I don't care how the BH is mounted...there can still be an issue. Those outriggers aren't all that strong on cuts/subcuts. These aren't industrial machines.

Watch this video, and it should remind you that you can very easily damage your outriggers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYvPIbPBBVs

The mistake that this guy made was that his tractor was uphill while digging. So, he not only had the hoe pulling him down hill (and bending the outriggers), but also the weight of the tractor. Whenever possible, position the tractor downhill from the work area. It will take some stress off of the outriggers.

Edit: Correction- he was downhill when it finally snapped. I had thought he was uphill when it happened. My apologies. Point being, you can easily damage them.

just watch the video. You'll see the outriggers bend several times. I see the very same thing on my machine occasionally, and I immediately ease up. Seemed like the outriggers were more stout on my old BX23, perhaps because they were shorter and the BH didn't have as much power?

Edit: Correction- he was downhill when it finally snapped. I had thought he was uphill when it happened. My apologies. Point being, you can easily damage them.
 
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Bulldog

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My first Kubota was a B7100 with sub-frame mount BH. I used it for years but did break the BH apart and it started at the outriggers.

I'd suggest that you remember that you're on a small Kubota, not a 416 Cat. Treat it for what it is because you will break it if you put too much stress in the wrong places.
 

SidecarFlip

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I don't care how the BH is mounted...there can still be an issue. Those outriggers aren't all that strong on cuts/subcuts. These aren't industrial machines.

Watch this video, and it should remind you that you can very easily damage your outriggers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYvPIbPBBVs

The mistake that this guy made was that his tractor was uphill while digging. So, he not only had the hoe pulling him down hill (and bending the outriggers), but also the weight of the tractor. Whenever possible, position the tractor downhill from the work area. It will take some stress off of the outriggers.

Edit: Correction- he was downhill when it finally snapped. I had thought he was uphill when it happened. My apologies. Point being, you can easily damage them.

just watch the video. You'll see the outriggers bend several times. I see the very same thing on my machine occasionally, and I immediately ease up. Seemed like the outriggers were more stout on my old BX23, perhaps because they were shorter and the BH didn't have as much power?

Edit: Correction- he was downhill when it finally snapped. I had thought he was uphill when it happened. My apologies. Point being, you can easily damage them.
That guy s an idiot, plain and simple. Tiny stump ruined his tiny backhoe. People think (I use that term loosely) that you cn move a mountain with a small residential machine. You can, in time, if it don't break.

You never raise the tractor rear wheels off the ground with the stabilizer arms, not even on a commercial unit. I use a Case Extenda-Hoe if I want to dig something. You can break them too if you are stupid. last time I laid water line I went to Black Swamp rentals and rented a small wheel trencher for a day. Much easier than digging a trench with a backhoe, lots quicker too.

I would have put a chain on that stump and popped it like a cork. Popped lots bigger ones than that one.
 

Eldubya

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Apr 14, 2014
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Quadra Island BC
If it's sub frame mount no issue. If it's 3 point mount, moving the backhoe and dragging the stabilizers can impart a rotational movement to the transmission casting and possibly breaking it. I have a friend that had an L5030 that broke his transmission casting by doing just that and the fix was very expensive.

Sub frame mount, no issue. 3 point mount is an issue. I have no idea what you have you didn't state your mount.

With a 3 point mount, the rotational stress is directly applied to the lift arm attachment points which, are bolted to the lower transmission casting.

In reality even with a sub frame mount the stress is applied indirectly to the tansmission casting but is spread out over various points.

It's all connected together.
OK, that makes sense. Mine is a frame mount, not on the 3P.
 

North Idaho Wolfman

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I think everyone is being a little overly damatic about this :rolleyes:, simply digging and causing the BH to slide on the outrigger pads is not all that much force.

No it's not ideal, but it's not excessive either. ;)
 

D2Cat

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That guy s an idiot, plain and simple. Tiny stump ruined his tiny backhoe. People think (I use that term loosely) that you cn move a mountain with a small residential machine. You can, in time, if it don't break.

You never raise the tractor rear wheels off the ground with the stabilizer arms, not even on a commercial unit. I use a Case Extenda-Hoe if I want to dig something. You can break them too if you are stupid. last time I laid water line I went to Black Swamp rentals and rented a small wheel trencher for a day. Much easier than digging a trench with a backhoe, lots quicker too.

I would have put a chain on that stump and popped it like a cork. Popped lots bigger ones than that one.
SidecarFlip, maybe you don't know it all! Here's a quote from ConstructionEqip.

"The machine is most stable for backhoe work when it is set up in what can be called the tripod position. Stabilizers are spread for the widest platform possible ***8212; not necessarily fully extended, but down far enough to raise the rear tires. The machine should be leveled for normal digging, but stabilizers can also tilt the machine to dig around obstacles in the excavation, or to slope the walls.

Each stabilizer is one leg of the tripod, and the loader bucket is the third. The loader should be in solid contact with the ground. If the front tires are carrying even part of the machine's weight, it will bounce slightly as the backhoe works. That bouncing will be transmitted into the operator and amplified through the controls.

https://www.constructionequipment.c...om/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=308584ls

Here's another ole farmer telling you how he does it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDS-nM4Mh64
 
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Eldubya

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Quadra Island BC
I've always avoided setting the FEL down, thinking it might translate too much torque onto the loader rams.
No?
 

dirtydeed

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I've always avoided setting the FEL down, thinking it might translate too much torque onto the loader rams.
No?
No. You want the bucket on the ground preferably low enough to get the front wheels off the ground as well.

I never keep the rear wheels on the ground while using the hoe if I can help it....especially on a B series tractor. Take a close look at the rear end/axle on a B series and you'll see why.

You just want to be careful with dragging the tractor backwards while the outriggers are down. Most times it's not a problem. However, keep an eye on just how much the outriggers are flexing. If a one gets stuck on a root/rock you can very easily snap it off (like in the video).
 

SidecarFlip

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SidecarFlip, maybe you don't know it all! Here's a quote from ConstructionEqip.

"The machine is most stable for backhoe work when it is set up in what can be called the tripod position. Stabilizers are spread for the widest platform possible ***8212; not necessarily fully extended, but down far enough to raise the rear tires. The machine should be leveled for normal digging, but stabilizers can also tilt the machine to dig around obstacles in the excavation, or to slope the walls.

Each stabilizer is one leg of the tripod, and the loader bucket is the third. The loader should be in solid contact with the ground. If the front tires are carrying even part of the machine's weight, it will bounce slightly as the backhoe works. That bouncing will be transmitted into the operator and amplified through the controls.

https://www.constructionequipment.c...om/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=308584ls

Here's another ole farmer telling you how he does it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDS-nM4Mh64
Never said I did. I do read owners manuals and do's and don't's with equipment. Been my experience with the Case that putting the stabilizer legs down but not lifting the tractor and placing the FEL bucket flat on the ground with slight down pressure, provides the most stable platform for digging. With the Extenda-Hoe, the bucket reach is twice what a fixed unit can do, consequently, the action of the lever (bucket arm and dipper stick) is much greater. Just machined a new set of bronze swing and stick bushings for the Case. Things wear out eventually, grease or not. A a rule, I don't attempt to use the hoe except for digging dirt. Trying to move immovable objects (tree stumps, large boulders, etc) puts a lot of strain on components.

You can exceed the design ls once in a while and get away with it but to continuously exceed the design limits is to invite component failure. The guy in the video was exceeding the design parameters of his residential hoe in a continuous manner and... it failed.

People buy residential rated equipment like a backhoe and expect that backhoe to accomplish tasks it wasn't made for and it fails.

Why I run the equipment I do. I know what the parameters are for my operation and I size the equipment accordingly.

Last year I seriously considered trading in the Case and buying a large hoe for the back end of one of the Kubotas but I decided against it. For one, with a subframe mount hoe, the subframe would interfere with the implements I use in my hay operation and two, a 3 point mount hoe is just another PITA piece of equipment to mount and take up room in the barn so I keep the Case.

One thing I find interesting is that most scenario's are spelled out in owners manuals as well as correct operating procedures but people don't bother to read the manual. Manuals today are items that only get referenced when something fails. There are always instances when a second opinion (like here) is helpful, I agree with that but basic operation is always spelled out in the manual(s) that come with a piece of equipment.

Each and every implement (and tractors) I own, each have their manuals and pertinent literature with the equipment at all times. What weatherproof manual carriers are made for.

In retrospect, I did have an issue with the flow control valve on the M9 but North Idaho Wolfman steered me in the correct direction and it wasn't the valve at all but the linkage that needed lubrication, couple shots of P Blaster on the joints and all is good again and I'll keep that in mind in the future if it gets stiff again.

I realize Kubota sells a boatload of compact tractors as does Kioti, Mahindra, LS, New Holland and Deere and others, but, people need to remember it's a compact tractor for 'compact' uses, not a commercially rated machine and when you exceed the design parameters, things break.

How I roll because with me, it's a fr profit business. Not a hobby.
 

SidecarFlip

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If you break it and need it fixed and live close to me, my shop does certified welding in TIG, MIG and SMAW and we do heavy fabrication too.:D