Snowblower Dryer and Polebarn Heater?

sheepfarmer · Jan 9, 2018

North Idaho Wolfman said:
I might have missed it, but why not a simple forced air Propane heater, or a diesel / kerosene model?

I have one and can thaw off snowblower or bobcat in nothing flat.

I would do propane if it's in an enclosed space as it cleaner and less carbon monoxide issues.

Here is just a couple examples:

https://www.sportsmansguide.com/pro...forced-air-propane-heater-38000-btu?a=1835682

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Dyna-Gl...Air-LP-Gas-Portable-Heater-LPFA125H/203633490

Why not? Cheaper, hotter, more effective. Rational reason: one wall of pole barn is old wooden wall of hay/horse barn and I didn't want to have to lug any more flammable stuff out there from the truck. Irrational reason: I am afraid of fire...

. It took me a while to confidantly light the grill, and burning the brush pile is put off and put off....

Thank you though, propane might work well for anyone else.

sheepfarmer · Jan 9, 2018

I think I might just have single phase out there? There are three big wires going into the adjacent building with the panel: red, white, and green. And then a copper ground. No fuses other than the circuit breakers for the individual lines in the two barns. There are two breakers labeled 15 amp spare. The welder circuit has two 50 amp breakers barred together.

The 3 outside wires come from a panel in the garage, and I think they are fused with only two red cylindrical fuses in one of those carriers that you skin your knuckles getting them out. This is a really old place, so that part of wiring is probably at least 50 yrs old.

Anyway it sounds like two 240 v outlets and if I don't get enough heat out of that size heater, I should A move south, B get therapist for fire phobia, C put on more long underwear

torch · Jan 9, 2018

sheepfarmer said:
There are three big wires going into the adjacent building with the panel: red, white, and green.

That's an unusual colour combination. Green is usually reserved for ground. I would expect red, black or blue for the hot lines, assuming the white is neutral. But it certainly sounds like single phase.

The 3 outside wires come from a panel in the garage, and I think they are fused with only two red cylindrical fuses in one of those carriers that you skin your knuckles getting them out.

Those are called cartridge fuses. One for each leg of the 240 volt supply. In other words, there's 240v between them, and 120v between each one and neutral/ground.

B get therapist for fire phobia,

Gene Hackman would be perfect for you:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfQ-3IMJ_uw

North Idaho Wolfman · Jan 9, 2018

sheepfarmer said:
I think I might just have single phase out there? There are three big wires going into the adjacent building with the panel: red, white, and green. And then a copper ground. No fuses other than the circuit breakers for the individual lines in the two barns. There are two breakers labeled 15 amp spare. The welder circuit has two 50 amp breakers barred together.

The 3 outside wires come from a panel in the garage, and I think they are fused with only two red cylindrical fuses in one of those carriers that you skin your knuckles getting them out. This is a really old place, so that part of wiring is probably at least 50 yrs old.

Anyway it sounds like two 240 v outlets and if I don't get enough heat out of that size heater, I should A move south, B get therapist for fire phobia, C put on more long underwear

Yes you have a Single Phase panel.
If the welder circuit (240 volt) is where you want heat, it would be the perfect circuit for a electric heater.
No need to run other circuits.
You can get a RV plug adapter to make the large 50 amp plug adapt to a smaller plug if needed.

Just to frazzle your feathers a little more, there are more of a fire hazard with electric heaters than with any propane heater.

sheepfarmer · Jan 9, 2018

NIW I did mention it wasn't rational.....

I started with the idea that maybe I could find an adapter plug for that welder circuit outlet, but electrician said not? It would sure make life easier and cheaper. Actually I dont see why the entire power cord couldnt be equipped with the right plug to begin with?

Dave_eng · Jan 9, 2018

sheepfarmer said:
I think I might just have single phase out there? There are three big wires going into the adjacent building with the panel: red, white, and green. And then a copper ground. No fuses other than the circuit breakers for the individual lines in the two barns. There are two breakers labeled 15 amp spare. The welder circuit has two 50 amp breakers barred together.

The 3 outside wires come from a panel in the garage, and I think they are fused with only two red cylindrical fuses in one of those carriers that you skin your knuckles getting them out. This is a really old place, so that part of wiring is probably at least 50 yrs old.

Anyway it sounds like two 240 v outlets and if I don't get enough heat out of that size heater, I should A move south, B get therapist for fire phobia, C put on more long underwear

Winter construction and the concrete portion of the project is always tricky in below freezing temps. The concrete cannot be allow to freeze until well into its 28 day curing cycle. Contractors want to us the open flame Salamander heaters from local rental business to keep the enclosure around the concrete warm

They get away with this on smaller jobs with less knowledgeable people.

The bad side of doing the heating with open flame heaters is the negative impact the high CO2 levels from the open flame have on the quality of the cured concrete.

I force contractors to use indirect fired heaters. Basically a gas or oil furnace located away from the concrete's enclosure with big flexible tubes conveying hot air into the concrete enclosure.

With your fear of fire in one of your buildings, you could do the same thing and locate the fuel burning equipment some distance from your building. A duct or two would convey the hot air but not fire.

Rural people who have wood fired boilers remote from their homes, are doing the same thing. All the smell and mess is outside and only the hot water is coming into the home.

Electrical heating in any area except Quebec Canada with an abundance of hydro electrical generating stations is, very very expensive.

Heat, whether from single phase, three phase and at whatever voltage is in the end kilowatts of energy and you are going to pay for the amount you use on the kilowatt hour basis

Just some other ideas for you to consider.

Dave

torch · Jan 9, 2018

North Idaho Wolfman said:
Just to frazzle your feathers a little more, there are more of a fire hazard with electric heaters than with any propane heater.

I've been to hundreds of fires over the last 29 years. Never seen an electrical fire blow up a neighbourhood: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCsNcwpYjUs

flyidaho · Jan 9, 2018

I've parked my PTO driven blower for years now in my totally unheated pole barn, with no issues. Maybe it's the way mine is parked, maybe any melt off drains? Other then some minor problems around the rotating chute from ice build up, the auger/chain etc has no problems. Maybe pulling your front wheels onto some planks, and lowering the blower all the way, would allow things to drain?

But, if heating things up is what you feel is needed, I like the 100 to 250 watt rubber floor mats with the heating wires embedded in them. Safe, and cheap, maybe one of them under the blower, plus throw an old blanket or whatever over the blower, there is no fire hazard with these radiant mats. I've used one for years under my cat's cardboard box in my shop, they just never get that hot, just warm.

North Idaho Wolfman · Jan 10, 2018

sheepfarmer said:
NIW I did mention it wasn't rational.....

I started with the idea that maybe I could find an adapter plug for that welder circuit outlet, but electrician said not? It would sure make life easier and cheaper. Actually I dont see why the entire power cord couldnt be equipped with the right plug to begin with?

Yes you can get adapter plugs.
And yes you could just put the right plug on the heater that would plug directly into the Electrical outlet.

If you give me a picture of the welder plug I can tell you exactly which plug it takes / or which adapter you would need.

sheepfarmer · Jan 10, 2018

NIW that would be great! I have been trying to gather information to see if I could do this myself. I was out in that barn doing chores earlier tonight and thought I should take a picture, but my phone was in my back jeans pocket, under my quilted coveralls, under my down coat, (and we are having the traditional January thaw.) Tomorrow.

I did look closely at the receptacle, and it says NEMA 6-50, and on top the electrician wrote welding circuit, 50 amps 240 V. The top center hole looks like a ground, and the two bottom slots for the blades are vertical. I *think* the right hand one was the longest.

I am not certain that the heater I am looking at fits those parameters since I don't totally follow the jargon, but seemed possible: dxh 1000ts

http://www.dewalt.com/en-us/product...ed-air-electric-construction-heater/dxh1000ts

It requires a power source of 240Vac/42 amps on a 50 amp 2 pole circuit breaker on highest setting. I am not sure if that is what is in that panel?

I downloaded the instruction manual hoping for more clues, and it does not come with a power cord, but mentions for less than 10 ft, use 14/3 awg wire. I was thinking of more like 50 ft, so started looking at 8/3 welding cords. Seems like I could get a 50 ft welding cord and cut the female plug off, strip the wires and attach to heater. BUT the manual gives no clues about making the connection, and only says must be installed by certified electrician. So must be obvious to them but not to me. Seems like it should be simple, but making a nice secure connection might have some tricks to it. My soldering etc was limited to circuits carrying mV, microamps, so no experience with either ac or big voltages.

I haven't ordered this heater yet....but claims to be safe for unattended operation.

Any further thoughts are appreciated, especially if I don't have something quite straight.

torch · Jan 10, 2018

The NEMA 6-50 is the most common AC welder plug. Even my plasma cutter uses one of those. Two hot lines, one ground, no neutral. You can buy that plug at any welding or electrical supply shop and most home renovation stores.

sheepfarmer · Jan 10, 2018

Since the blades are different to make sure it is only plugged in one way, are the two hot lines different in some way? Some sort of polarity?

The circuit diagram only labels the input as L1 and L2.

Russell King · Jan 10, 2018

This will help explain the plug wiring

http://www.myrv.us/Imgs/PDF/50-amp Service.pdf
http://rv52.com/nice-50-amp-receptacle-voltage-diagram/

There are RV splitter plugs like this to get 120V from the 240V
https://www.amazon.com/Conntek-Adatper-Female-Connector-3-Feet/dp/B002MGSNNQ

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

eipo · Jan 11, 2018

2650 probably wont fit in the garage, will it?

torch · Jan 11, 2018

sheepfarmer said:
Since the blades are different to make sure it is only plugged in one way, are the two hot lines different in some way? Some sort of polarity?

The circuit diagram only labels the input as L1 and L2.

L1 and L2 are interchangeable -- since they are carrying Alternating Current, the polarity changes 120 times per second anyway. The difference between them is 240VAC rms.

The blades are different widths to prevent someone from plugging a NEMA 5-50 (also 50 amps, but 120v) plug into the receptacle

Russell King said:
This will help explain the plug wiring

You seem to be confusing this with NEMA 14-50, which is also sometimes used for welding equipment (and RVs and electric cars). But the 14-50 has 4 blades because it also provides a neutral. Maybe this will help visualize the differences:

sheepfarmer · Jan 11, 2018

eipo said:
2650 probably wont fit in the garage, will it?

Nope! That would be convenient.

North Idaho Wolfman · Jan 11, 2018

Because of the weight of the SOOW 6-3 electrical cord and for your ease of moving the heater when not in use, I would suggest a short (a foot or so at most) SOOW 6-3 (rubber cord) off of the heater with a male plug end, might be easier to use a twist lock NEMA L6-50, way easier to connect and disconnect than the NEMA 6-50.
Then a long cord with a NEMA L6-50 female on one end and a male NEMA 6-50 on the other end.

Note: The cord and the ends will probably cost you more than the heater alone. EDIT: Nope I just caught the price of that heater!
The SOOW 6-3 will give you 55amp capacity.

Be careful as there are a lot of Welder Extension cords out there that are 8/3 cords, the have NEMA 6-50 plugs but the wire is only rated for 40AMPS.
Stupid if you ask me to put a 50 amp plug on a 40 amp wire!

torch · Jan 11, 2018

North Idaho Wolfman said:
Stupid if you ask me to put a 50 amp plug on a 40 amp wire!

I think code allows #8 copper to carry 50 amps, provided there are only 2 hot wires and the insulation is rated at least 75°C.

That said, I think there is a substantial difference between a welder that is probably only carrying that current 50% of the time it is turned on and a heater that could run continuously for hours at a time.

Russell King · Jan 11, 2018

torch said:
You seem to be confusing this with NEMA 14-50, which is also sometimes used for welding equipment (and RVs and electric cars). But the 14-50 has 4 blades because it also provides a neutral. Maybe this will help visualize the differences:

I was not too worried about the plug style just the concept on how the voltage is supplied.
Hopefully it is not too much different.
I am not able to see your picture of the plug

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

torch · Jan 11, 2018

Ah. Well you can't really split the voltage with a 6-50 because there is no neutral.

I'm not sure why you can't see the image -- Oh, wait, maybe I do know.

Try it now (I had a space in the file name -- some systems don't like that!)

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