Snowblower Dryer and Polebarn Heater?

sheepfarmer · Jan 22, 2018

Hmmm had stopped by Lowes last week to see what they had in stock, and it turns out pretty much nothing in 6 gauge except for the stuff that goes in walls. My second thought was to order about 35 or 40 feet online and cut off 10 ft for part that goes into heater and make the rest into extension cord as suggested. But ordering online would be risky given strain relief size issue. I'll measure it and see if it rules out 6 3. Looks pretty big.

skeets · Jan 22, 2018

sheepfarmer what is the rating on the heater plate,, it will say volts, watts and or amps. If you doing it for an extension cord#10 SO cable will handle 30 amps and I doubt your drawing that much from the heater

RCW · Jan 22, 2018

Sheepfarmer - -

I can't give any advice for gauge, but in our local Lowes, there are several options for "chord" wires, by the foot, on a rack of rotating spools in the electric area.

I got a pre-packaged 100' spool of 6/3 Romex for my subpanel next to that rack, and bought 8 and 10 ga. THHN off those by- -the-foot spools for the same project.

Seems they had 12, 10, 8, and 6 gauge chord wire by the foot of different configurations?

North Idaho Wolfman · Jan 22, 2018

If the Strain relief is only sized for a 14-3 or 12-3 you can use that for a short cord, I wouldn't do a 10' cord, I would only do a foot or two cord in that size then the rest in a heavier cord.

The fact that the rating plate says 240 @ 42 amps, you could drop down to a 8-3 cord, and they make those already premade with ends.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/371853808057

bgk · Jan 22, 2018

North Idaho Wolfman said:
If the Strain relief is only sized for a 14-3 or 12-3 you can use that for a short cord, I wouldn't do a 10' cord, I would only do a foot or two cord in that size then the rest in a heavier cord.

The fact that the rating plate says 240 @ 42 amps, you could drop down to a 8-3 cord, and they make those already premade with ends.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/371853808057

How in the world do you always seem to know everything about everything? Not trying to stroke anyone’s ego, but it’s impressive.

Tughill Tom · Jan 22, 2018

the cord you need is #8- 2 conductor, SOOW cord which will fit all your requirements. its oil, water resistant and suited for outdoor use. you can wire it directly into the panel and/ or put the correct plug ends on as needed. look at McMaster-Carr for it.

sheepfarmer · Jan 22, 2018

Well just to make things more complicated, my electrician, the boss man himself finally looked at all the specs tonight and declared my 50 amp welding circuit would not be up to code. For 42 amps he said the wiring needed to be 42 x 1.25 which is 52.5 amps, and so the receptacle is inadequate. Same for breaker etc in panel, so that needs new wiring too. Needs 60 amps.

Not sure how this is going to end. Just when I think I've got a handle on it. Further proof that my fire phobia is going to cost a lot, maybe even more than a therapist.

eipo · Jan 22, 2018

Your 50 amp receptacle should give you 50 amps... It is already there, right? If its breakered at 50 amps, the wiring should already have been installed to handle the 52 amps so the breaker trips before the wire heats and melts.

I also agree you only need 8 gauge wire. But need to see the plug on the heater to determine whether you need 8-2 or 8-3.

Guess I should have read the thread first.

I would run a short cord off the heater using as large a gauge as possible, so 6' or so. Or even 4' would suffice. You could also drill the hole out and put in a larger strain relief if you like. Then make up your heavy extension cord. It does look like you need X-2 plus ground so that makes the wire a bit cheaper...

It wouldn't be anything to swap out the existing welder receptacle and install a twist lock for an extension cord. It can be swapped back any time....

I am available to help if you like.

torch · Jan 22, 2018

sheepfarmer said:
For 42 amps he said the wiring needed to be 42 x 1.25 which is 52.5 amps, and so the receptacle is inadequate. Same for breaker etc in panel, so that needs new wiring too. Needs 60 amps.

Your electrician may be out of date with his calculations. At one time, NEC required 125% ampacity of a continuous load (ie: 3 hours or more) for both wire and "overcurrent device" (ie: breaker). But that was changed many years ago. The NEC now requires only the breaker to be oversized, since breakers can break down if subjected to continuous loads over 80% of rated capacity.

In other words, you may well need a bigger breaker, but if the wire is adequate for 42 amps, then you don't need to change the wire.

Now, there are instances where derating the wire is appropriate, such as when multiple conductors are run in contact in a conduit, or where the insulation temperature rating is insufficient. And you haven't told us what the installed wire size actually is, so perhaps it's undersized for the existing 50 amp outlet. But on the face of it, you may want to ask for a second opinion.

sheepfarmer · Jan 22, 2018

Torch you may have hit on what is worrying him. His assistants did the installation of the wiring from the panel which is in an adjacent building to the new pole barn. The wires run under the concrete alley in a metal conduit. Probably about 12 feet. He is currently in the middle of a big project installing/rewiring fire alarms in schools so may be OCD as a result.But he has not been around enough on my projects to make me confidant he knows what has happened essentially 2 years ago, and I sure don't know what wires run through there.

Thanks everyone for helpful comments, thanks to your generosity with your expertise I am learning a lot of new things.

torch · Jan 23, 2018

sheepfarmer said:
But he has not been around enough on my projects to make me confidant he knows what has happened essentially 2 years ago, and I sure don't know what wires run through there.

There should be a junction box somewhere at one end or the other of the conduit. He could (an may have) taken the cover off the j-box to count and check size of wires. That's what I would have done, anyway.

sheepfarmer · Jan 23, 2018

torch said:
There should be a junction box somewhere at one end or the other of the conduit. He could (an may have) taken the cover off the j-box to count and check size of wires. That's what I would have done, anyway.

The assistant is coming out Thursday, so you can bet I'll be breathing down his neck so I can learn some more first hand. Assuming there is at least one wire per circuit breaker there should be 6 or 7. There is a box in pole barn. Can you tell gauge by looking without touching them? Thanks!

torch · Jan 23, 2018

sheepfarmer said:
The assistant is coming out Thursday, so you can bet I'll be breathing down his neck so I can learn some more first hand. Assuming there is at least one wire per circuit breaker there should be 6 or 7. There is a box in pole barn. Can you tell gauge by looking without touching them? Thanks!

Ok, this does make some sense now. If you bundle more than 3 conductors in close proximity for more than 24", then they are supposed to be derated. The exact % depends on the wire insulation temperature rating and the number of wires in the conduit. If you have 6 wires in there and if the wire gauges were not adjusted as required when initially installed, then perhaps the rewiring is warranted. But I personally would have installed heavier gauge wires in the first place.

Usually the wire insulation will be marked to indicate characteristics such as temperature rating. It will also often be marked with the AWG size, but your electrician can probably identify that by sight.

RCW · Jan 23, 2018

sheepfarmer said:
Thanks everyone for helpful comments, thanks to your generosity with your expertise I am learning a lot of new things.

I’m learning a lot too!

Eipo and Torch - you both obviously have great technical knowledge, and you both articulate it very well!
Thanks, guys!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

North Idaho Wolfman · Jan 23, 2018

sheepfarmer said:
The assistant is coming out Thursday, so you can bet I'll be breathing down his neck so I can learn some more first hand. Assuming there is at least one wire per circuit breaker there should be 6 or 7. There is a box in pole barn. Can you tell gauge by looking without touching them? Thanks!

There is 3-4 wires used per circuit breaker.
But you can share some like the ground and in some cases the neutral.

Your Welder circuit should be 3 wires just for that circuit, 2 hots and a ground.
Optimally, for a welder circuit of that size, The hot wires should be #6 or greater copper, and the ground can be one size less like #8.

The size of the wire will depend on they type of wire Copper or aluminum, jacket type, and length of run.
Adding for pipe fill will require you to know what the length, size, and type of pipe, load and size wires of all other circuits in the pipe.
If the Welder circuit is the only heavy load circuit (greater than 20amp) then you should not have to worry about load calculations as heating will be minimal under usable conditions.

sheepfarmer · Jan 23, 2018

If I understood electrician correctly, he mentioned "hardwiring" heater circuit to panel, this means he is going to add new larger wires, circuit breakers, and receptacles for 60amp. I am assuming the other circuits, the welder circuit, the wall outlet circuits, the lights, and door openers can stay the same. I don't know if putting more wires in that conduit is going to derate the rest so the whole bunch have to be replaced? I hope they oversized the originals so there is some slack. They did ask me what I expected to need so it is my fault since I didn't foresee this kind of use.

sheepfarmer · Jan 27, 2018

Ok, here's what's happened in the meantime: I got brave (?) turned off all the circuit breakers in the panel and opened the junction box in the pole barn. Photographed the wires, and the conduit, and with help from NIW concluded that the 50 amp welder circuit only has 8 gauge wires supplying it. 8 is marginal for welder, but totally inadequate for a heater which unlike a welder is pulling current constantly. I f you squint at the teeny tiny dot pattern on the wire it says 8 AWG/

Wasn't sure if that conduit was packed tightly, but if I don't plug anything too hefty into the 110 wall sockets it should be ok. Distance is less than 24 feet to panel.

So new 6 gauge wires were needed.

sheepfarmer · Jan 27, 2018

Electrician came yesterday and here is what he did. They stuck to their guns that the plug etc. had to be multiplied by 1.25 requiring a 60 amp plug for a heater using 42 amp. Since I am building for the future, including the possibility of someone using this plug for something else, I didn't argue about paying for more expensive plug and receptacle. The good news about the 60 amp plug is that it is easy for me to attach and detach from the wall outlet; it can be grasped with two hands with no danger of getting a finger near the prongs. I liked the idea of the Twist locks better, but they had already bought these, and they will work ok.

So he pulled two new 6 gauge wires and a new 8 for a ground from the panel next door, into the box and then on into a smaller conduit over the door, and ended in a more convenient location to hang up the cord and park the heater. A 50 ft 6 gauge SO cord was attached to a 60 amp plug at one end, and the other end directly to the heater via a strain relief gadget as described by Torch. I had said 35 feet of cord would do, but the electrician pointed out I was going to pay for 50, may as well use it. My thought was you can always shorten it, but you can't make it longer.

sheepfarmer · Jan 27, 2018

Spent some time today trying out the deWalt heater. On the one hand the heat output is underwhelming considering all the wiring to get it to run, on the other hand it appears safe. It is quiet, the airflow goes about 6 feet, and is fairly linear. It doesn't blow loose objects around. The case does not get hot. You can run it on the high or low settings by flipping a switch, but I didn't see a huge difference between the two. You can run the fan without heat by turning the thermostat down all the way, and this should be done to cool it off before shut down.

I suspect it will be useful for warming a small area where I am working, and it warms the general area of the tractor engine from a reasonable distance. I got down on my knees and pretended to grease zerks, and it was a much more agreeable temperature near the heater. I am not sure it will melt off much snow, I think Dave will prove correct on that score. I also think Eipo and several other folks that suggested making a smaller enclosure for the snowblower will be correct. The good news is that this heater could be aimed at a 3 sided enclosure without melting the hydraulic hoses.

The electrician mentioned he had a propane torpedo heater that he was using to warm an area to work on his truck. It had the endearing feature of emitting a 6 foot flame when it ran out of fuel. Not my cup of tea

Now that it is all set up, I am supposing it won't snow any more this year, but I'll update it's functionality if it does.

Thanks everyone for all your help!

Tooljunkie · Jan 27, 2018

On the rolling platform is brilliant,easy to move and up off the floor to keep it out of the water.
The expense of wiring is done,its safe and done well. Just need snow.
Had 4” last night,another 6” coming monday or tuesday.

Snowblower Dryer and Polebarn Heater?

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