Hydro-static drives

Butch

Active member

Equipment
Kubota 2410, RC60-24B, FL1000- kubota hydrolic front snow blade- plug aerator
Sep 10, 2009
633
82
28
74
Rising Sun, MD
OK guys... I just had a come to Jesus meeting regarding lawn tractor hydrostatic drives. My buddy gave me a John Deere LX 178. The gears in the tranny were toast. After much research I learned hydrostatic drives for MANY makes of tractors (JD, Toro, Wheel Horse, Cub Cadette, Poulan and many others) are manufactured by TUFF TORQ Corporation.

I contacted Tuff Torq and they said their independent manufacturer no longer make these gears. When I contacted several lawn tractor service companies in my metro area... they laughed and told me good luck... said junk yards are loaded with many makes of tractors with blown Tuff Torq trannyies.

Here is my question.... Does Kubota utilize any Tuff Torq tranny's in their residential mower units... like in the Z series in the small lawn tractors.
 

North Idaho Wolfman

Moderator
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Lifetime Member

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L3450DT-GST, Woods FEL, B7100 HSD, FEL, 60" SB, 743 Bobcat with V2203, and more
Jun 9, 2013
28,597
5,056
113
Sandpoint, ID
OK guys... I just had a come to Jesus meeting regarding lawn tractor hydrostatic drives. My buddy gave me a John Deere LX 178. The gears in the tranny were toast. After much research I learned hydrostatic drives for MANY makes of tractors (JD, Toro, Wheel Horse, Cub Cadette, Poulan and many others) are manufactured by TUFF TORQ Corporation.

I contacted Tuff Torq and they said their independent manufacturer no longer make these gears. When I contacted several lawn tractor service companies in my metro area... they laughed and told me good luck... said junk yards are loaded with many makes of tractors with blown Tuff Torq trannyies.

Here is my question.... Does Kubota utilize any Tuff Torq tranny's in their residential mower units... like in the Z series in the small lawn tractors.
No I do not believe so, but for the life of me can't remember the name.
 

Butch

Active member

Equipment
Kubota 2410, RC60-24B, FL1000- kubota hydrolic front snow blade- plug aerator
Sep 10, 2009
633
82
28
74
Rising Sun, MD
Just for grins and giggles I went next door and crawled under his new Kubota Z421 zero turn. Low and behold the OEM tranny is manufactured by Hydro Gear. On their website I found the Z421's hydrostatic unit marked as residential, however, it has a lot more meat on it than the Tuff Torq ever had.

I will take this find as a good thing.
 

SidecarFlip

Banned

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M9000HDCC3, M9000HD, Kubota GS850 Sidekick
Oct 28, 2018
7,197
546
83
USA
Just for grins and giggles I went next door and crawled under his new Kubota Z421 zero turn. Low and behold the OEM tranny is manufactured by Hydro Gear. On their website I found the Z421's hydrostatic unit marked as residential, however, it has a lot more meat on it than the Tuff Torq ever had.

I will take this find as a good thing.
I have Hydro Gear units on my Cub Cadet M60 Tank, it's 10 years old at least, never had any issues, just change the oil every other year and the filters. Interestingly, Hydro Gear recommends 15-40 motor oil as the fluid.

Hydro Gear makes commercial and residential drives. You can tell the difference by the amount of fluid they hold. The commercial units take 5 quarts in each unit, the residential units take 2 quarts in each one.
 

lugbolt

Well-known member

Equipment
ZG127S-54
Oct 15, 2015
4,835
1,588
113
Mid, South, USA
Z100's and Z400's are hydrogear, ZG200's, 300's, ZD's are Kubota, Z700's are Parker units. That is the major models that I deal with. F series are all Kubota. Older G series were mostly Kubota. GR? JUNK. Dunno who makes that pile of trash transmission, and don't care. I have one...bad transmission...was given to me. Havent' decided what to do with it, thinking about BURNING it, so that nobody else has to endure the infamous GR2100/2110/2120 curse! some of the older T series used tuff-torq, I'm thinking maybe the T1460/T1560--but I may be wrong. They were 10x better transaxles than the JD LX100 series, and completely different too, in every aspect. I tried to put a LX172 transaxle into a T1460 chassis. Could've been done but would've been a TON of work (reengineering the belt drive, shift linkages, brake links, modify fender for shifter, etc etc). Not worth the trouble when there's a few thousand other ones out there laying in people's yards and barns rotting away.

JD LX100's were tuff-torq. They were noisy. No charge pump to speak of. Most JD FSR's said don't even change fluid in them, if it's not leaking, leave it alone and run it-said they'd last the life of the mower when used normally. They were right. Most of the time the hood shattered, then owner found out how much that PLASTIC hood cost, then the mower got replaced and/or scrapped. Thus at least in this area there are TONS of LX100 series mowers laying around. Just look behind houses for green/yellow and no hood. LX176, 178, 186, and 188 were all mostly the same with engine and deck differences. The LX172, 173 were 5 speed gear drive. They were all pretty good mowers but getting parts for them is getting tough due to their age. I had a beautiful VERY low (under 10 hour) LX188 given to me because the owner said it wouldn't move. Great, another project. Nope....the ALUMINUM HST pulley's splines were GONE (in about 10 hours' use???). JD updated it with a different pulley which lasted the rest of the time I had it. Aside from that issue and the asininely designed BRITTLE hood that shattered while MOWING (on flat smooth ground nonetheless), it was a pretty good mower. I put that $700 hood on it and cleaned it up real good, then sold it for $1000. Came out ok on it. People will still pay good money for 'em as long as the hood's not broken, and those are getting very rare. If no hood and other problems? Even just no hood and working mechanically? Worthless. Or worth very little anyway. People know what those hoods cost and there are a grand total of zero good hoods on the used market worldwide (at least that I know of). That is the problem with all of them (hood).

I sold a few hundred of the LX100's back in the 1990's and very early 2000's. Worked on them for other dealers who didn't want to as well...so I had PLENTY of work. There was a big recall on the key switches, they liked to catch fire as I recall. HST pulleys failed often, were updated with new style. Old ones NLA. Have to make sure the clutch is adjusted properly (even on HST models)...the belt drive is attached to the brake, so when the park brake is set, belt tension is removed. But the downside to that design is that when/if you get off the mower, you have the brake set, and engine running....the belt is constantly slipping a little, and it gets hot.

BUT...what I do like about the LX100's, specifically the 178 and 188, is the water cooled kawasaki engine. Adjust the valves and they are super quiet running and VERY smooth running. My favorite is the 178 with the smaller V-twin. Barely hear it running at idle speed in neutral. Also on the 178, they could be had with 3 different mower decks, 38" (run of the mill), a 44" Piranha, and a 48". The piranha deck had 6 blades and cut wonderfully but it liked to suck up a lot of power and was tough keeping everything working; the plastic deflector under the deck was required for a good cut but most in this area ripped it out by hanging a rock or stump in the first 1 minute of use. Those that didn't....enjoyed a SUPERB cut quality as long as the deck was leveled before use. The 188 I had, I got it with a 48" and it was slightly too big for the graveyard I was cutting, and I found a guy who bought a brand new 345 with a Piranha and he hated the deck. We did a straight trade and he got the 48" which worked for his needs and I got a brand new 44" that made the cemetery board extremely happy with the cut quality.
 

hodge

Well-known member
Lifetime Member

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John Deere 790 John Deere 310 backhoe Bobcat 743
Nov 19, 2010
2,853
367
83
Love, VA
Wheel Horse, at least on the older, heavier stuff, used Eaton.
 

Butch

Active member

Equipment
Kubota 2410, RC60-24B, FL1000- kubota hydrolic front snow blade- plug aerator
Sep 10, 2009
633
82
28
74
Rising Sun, MD
Z100's and Z400's are hydrogear, ZG200's, 300's, ZD's are Kubota, Z700's are Parker units. That is the major models that I deal with. F series are all Kubota. Older G series were mostly Kubota. GR? JUNK. Dunno who makes that pile of trash transmission, and don't care. I have one...bad transmission...was given to me. Havent' decided what to do with it, thinking about BURNING it, so that nobody else has to endure the infamous GR2100/2110/2120 curse! some of the older T series used tuff-torq, I'm thinking maybe the T1460/T1560--but I may be wrong. They were 10x better transaxles than the JD LX100 series, and completely different too, in every aspect. I tried to put a LX172 transaxle into a T1460 chassis. Could've been done but would've been a TON of work (reengineering the belt drive, shift linkages, brake links, modify fender for shifter, etc etc). Not worth the trouble when there's a few thousand other ones out there laying in people's yards and barns rotting away.

JD LX100's were tuff-torq. They were noisy. No charge pump to speak of. Most JD FSR's said don't even change fluid in them, if it's not leaking, leave it alone and run it-said they'd last the life of the mower when used normally. They were right. Most of the time the hood shattered, then owner found out how much that PLASTIC hood cost, then the mower got replaced and/or scrapped. Thus at least in this area there are TONS of LX100 series mowers laying around. Just look behind houses for green/yellow and no hood. LX176, 178, 186, and 188 were all mostly the same with engine and deck differences. The LX172, 173 were 5 speed gear drive. They were all pretty good mowers but getting parts for them is getting tough due to their age. I had a beautiful VERY low (under 10 hour) LX188 given to me because the owner said it wouldn't move. Great, another project. Nope....the ALUMINUM HST pulley's splines were GONE (in about 10 hours' use???). JD updated it with a different pulley which lasted the rest of the time I had it. Aside from that issue and the asininely designed BRITTLE hood that shattered while MOWING (on flat smooth ground nonetheless), it was a pretty good mower. I put that $700 hood on it and cleaned it up real good, then sold it for $1000. Came out ok on it. People will still pay good money for 'em as long as the hood's not broken, and those are getting very rare. If no hood and other problems? Even just no hood and working mechanically? Worthless. Or worth very little anyway. People know what those hoods cost and there are a grand total of zero good hoods on the used market worldwide (at least that I know of). That is the problem with all of them (hood).

I sold a few hundred of the LX100's back in the 1990's and very early 2000's. Worked on them for other dealers who didn't want to as well...so I had PLENTY of work. There was a big recall on the key switches, they liked to catch fire as I recall. HST pulleys failed often, were updated with new style. Old ones NLA. Have to make sure the clutch is adjusted properly (even on HST models)...the belt drive is attached to the brake, so when the park brake is set, belt tension is removed. But the downside to that design is that when/if you get off the mower, you have the brake set, and engine running....the belt is constantly slipping a little, and it gets hot.

BUT...what I do like about the LX100's, specifically the 178 and 188, is the water cooled kawasaki engine. Adjust the valves and they are super quiet running and VERY smooth running. My favorite is the 178 with the smaller V-twin. Barely hear it running at idle speed in neutral. Also on the 178, they could be had with 3 different mower decks, 38" (run of the mill), a 44" Piranha, and a 48". The piranha deck had 6 blades and cut wonderfully but it liked to suck up a lot of power and was tough keeping everything working; the plastic deflector under the deck was required for a good cut but most in this area ripped it out by hanging a rock or stump in the first 1 minute of use. Those that didn't....enjoyed a SUPERB cut quality as long as the deck was leveled before use. The 188 I had, I got it with a 48" and it was slightly too big for the graveyard I was cutting, and I found a guy who bought a brand new 345 with a Piranha and he hated the deck. We did a straight trade and he got the 48" which worked for his needs and I got a brand new 44" that made the cemetery board extremely happy with the cut quality.
Lugbolt .... this pretty much sums up what I have learned about hydro drives. The folks that I know are in the market for for a lawn traftor will be researching the mfg. of the unit BEFORE hey plop down the bucks... Thanks for the input!