B1700 won't start

simpson1

New member

Equipment
l4240 and b1700
Feb 7, 2017
27
0
1
Iowa
I have a kubota b1700 that won't start. Just put a new battery in it and when you go to turn it over nothing happens. Lights and everything come up on the dash. So I had someone sit on it and hold the key on the turn over position while I put a screw driver on the solenoid. It fired right up but when they released the key it died. Tried that all over again and it still died. Bad solenoid???
 

MikeyA

Member

Equipment
2016 B2650 FEL and 60"mmm,1998 B2400 MMM FEL(sold!) BB 4ft BRUSH HOG
Mar 6, 2010
150
1
18
West Central Illinois
Check the connections on the clutch safety switch and the nuetral safety switch. My B2400 started acting up and I found corrosion on the clutch switch...cleaned it up and it started right up.
 

Dave_eng

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M7040, Nuffield 465
Oct 6, 2012
5,108
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Williamstown Ontario Canada
Here is the starting circuit wiring diagram.

I have not studied it yet but will do so soon and may have a suggestion.
Stop solenoid wiring


Is it practical to remove the fuel stop solenoid and verify the road is moving as it should with the key on or off?
The solenoid moves in the on and start positions so you only have to check it with the key on.





Dave M7040
 
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simpson1

New member

Equipment
l4240 and b1700
Feb 7, 2017
27
0
1
Iowa
Here is the starting circuit wiring diagram.

I have not studied it yet but will do so soon and may have a suggestion.
Stop solenoid wiring


Is it practical to remove the fuel stop solenoid and verify the road is moving as it should with the key on or off?
The solenoid moves in the on and start positions so you only have to check it with the key on.





Dave M7040
I checked all my safety switches and they seem good. The one is a little goofy but looks good. So I jumped it from the solenoid again and it wont start unless the key is on the far right position (turnover position) it started but once I let off the key it died again. It was running under its own power without the starter running while the engine was. Do you guys still think theirs a bad safety switch or fuse??
 

Dave_eng

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M7040, Nuffield 465
Oct 6, 2012
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I checked all my safety switches and they seem good. The one is a little goofy but looks good. So I jumped it from the solenoid again and it wont start unless the key is on the far right position (turnover position) it started but once I let off the key it died again. It was running under its own power without the starter running while the engine was. Do you guys still think theirs a bad safety switch or fuse??
In addition to jumping the starter, the engine stop solenoid on the fuel injection pump needs to be powered. I see a five amp fuse in the circuit feeding the engine stop solenoid from the key switch. Check it first.
If the fuse is OK, remove the wiring harness from the solenoid and check it for power on one of the two wires. Check for power with the key in the run and start positions. Power should be present in both positions.
Check the ground quality in the solenoid wire harness by using a test light connected to the battery + and touching the probe to the ground wire in the harness at the solenoid.
If the presence of power or a good ground source is not obvious, connect one terminal of the solenoid to ground and the other to 12 volts and then jump the starter. The engine should start and continue to run.
Do these things and post again.

Please don***8217;t just find the problem and not give a final update.

We need the feedback and if you don***8217;t you don***8217;t provide it, someone at a future time may see this and not be helpful.

The feedback not only confirms the accuracy of the advice you were given but how well the advice was described to someone like you. Advice can be too technical and not understood or based upon assuming the person with the problem has no knowledge at all and be unnecessarily lengthy and too basic,

Dave M7040
 

simpson1

New member

Equipment
l4240 and b1700
Feb 7, 2017
27
0
1
Iowa
So I put two new fuses in on the starter harness... still nothing when I turn the key. Doesn't turn over or click. I tested the clutch and I think the pto safety switch. Both tested good with a multimeter. I'm certain that it's a safety switch. What other safety switches are on it and where are they located. Also could it be a relay or ignition.
 
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Dave_eng

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M7040, Nuffield 465
Oct 6, 2012
5,108
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Williamstown Ontario Canada
I am getting confused trying to understand your problem. You say it started when you used the screwdriver but stopped when the key was released.

Now you say it wont do anything except turn on the dash lights.

Do you understand the wiring diagrams or do you need help with them? No problem if you do, it just helps to know what you know.

There are 3 safety switches all in series like the very old Christmas tree lights when one bulb went out they all did.

The power goes from the key switch to the first switch, then to the second switch and then to the third and then to the starter solenoid.

There are three safety switches. The safety switches are located three (Clutch pedal, PTO gear shift lever and main gear shift lever
for manual transmission model or Hi-Lo gear shift lever for hydrostatic transmission model) different position.

The safety switch prevents current from flowing to the starter when the safety switches are not depressed. This is to ensure safe starting.

You mention using a multi meter to test a safety switch.

I think you need to test the safety switches in place and with the wiring connected. Have someone hold the key in start. At each safety switch test each terminal for 12 volts. There should be 12 volts at each terminal on each switch and when you find a safety switch terminal without 12 volts you have found the location of your problem.

Do I understand you to say the starter no longer works even with the screwdriver?

I would remove both ends of the ground cable, the connection to the engine or frame and at the battery and clean then until they shine.

What sort of terminals are on the battery cables. Original or replacement ones that clamp to the wire. A slightly bad connection will power dash lights but fail when ask to power the starter. It is one item to eliminate first.
Dave M7040
 
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simpson1

New member

Equipment
l4240 and b1700
Feb 7, 2017
27
0
1
Iowa
I am getting confused trying to understand your problem. You say it started when you used the screwdriver but stopped when the key was released.

Now you say it wont do anything except turn on the dash lights.

Do you understand the wiring diagrams or do you need help with them? No problem if you do, it just helps to know what you know.

There are 3 safety switches all in series like the very old Christmas tree lights when one bulb went out they all did.

The power goes from the key switch to the first switch, then to the second switch and then to the third and then to the starter solenoid.

There are three safety switches. The safety switches are located three (Clutch pedal, PTO gear shift lever and main gear shift lever
for manual transmission model or Hi-Lo gear shift lever for hydrostatic transmission model) different position.

The safety switch prevents current from flowing to the starter when the safety switches are not depressed. This is to ensure safe starting.

You mention using a multi meter to test a safety switch.

I think you need to test the safety switches in place and with the wiring connected. Have someone hold the key in start. At each safety switch test each terminal for 12 volts. There should be 12 volts at each terminal on each switch and when you find a safety switch terminal without 12 volts you have found the location of your problem.

Do I understand you to say the starter no longer works even with the screwdriver?

I would remove both ends of the ground cable, the connection to the engine or frame and at the battery and clean then until they shine.

What sort of terminals are on the battery cables. Original or replacement ones that clamp to the wire. A slightly bad connection will power dash lights but fail when ask to power the starter. It is one item to eliminate first.
Dave M7040
It will start with the screw driver but if I don't use it, it will not start. The diagram makes sense but finding the safety switches and fuses can be a little confusing. There's one that I haven't checked and its hard to get to. Its for the pto but I can't get to it because part of the plastics block it and it can't really be removed because this "open and close" knob blocks it. The panel is right behind your heel and right below the seat. How can I remove it?
 

MikeyA

Member

Equipment
2016 B2650 FEL and 60"mmm,1998 B2400 MMM FEL(sold!) BB 4ft BRUSH HOG
Mar 6, 2010
150
1
18
West Central Illinois
The knob comes off by pulling straight out on it. You will probably have to pry it to get it to move if it has never been off, but be gentle, they will break!! After that, there should be two 12mm bolts up by the seat base and there are two tabs on the floor pan. You will have to move the rubber floor mat, but then you will see how the cover tabs unhook from floor pan.
 

Dave_eng

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M7040, Nuffield 465
Oct 6, 2012
5,108
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Williamstown Ontario Canada
It will start with the screw driver but if I don't use it, it will not start. The diagram makes sense but finding the safety switches and fuses can be a little confusing. There's one that I haven't checked and its hard to get to. Its for the pto but I can't get to it because part of the plastics block it and it can't really be removed because this "open and close" knob blocks it. The panel is right behind your heel and right below the seat. How can I remove it?
Since you can start it with a screw driver, will it keep running with the key in the on position. If it wont stay running in the ON position, will it stay running if you hold the key in the START position?

If I were in your shoes I would be looking for a big hammer to bash it to make me feel better. I want you to know I have been in those frustrating, cannot find it situations.

I want to try and help you identify certain things for me which can make my advice for you as good as it can be.

For now don't worry about the buried fuse. It likely has nothing to do with your problem.

If it wont stay running the tractor is of no use to you. If we can get it to stay running then you can use it and we can figure out why it does not want the starter to engage.

Looking forward to your next post.

Dave M7040
 

simpson1

New member

Equipment
l4240 and b1700
Feb 7, 2017
27
0
1
Iowa
Since you can start it with a screw driver, will it keep running with the key in the on position. If it wont stay running in the ON position, will it stay running if you hold the key in the START position?

If I were in your shoes I would be looking for a big hammer to bash it to make me feel better. I want you to know I have been in those frustrating, cannot find it situations.

I want to try and help you identify certain things for me which can make my advice for you as good as it can be.

For now don't worry about the buried fuse. It likely has nothing to do with your problem.

If it wont stay running the tractor is of no use to you. If we can get it to stay running then you can use it and we can figure out why it does not want the starter to engage.

Looking forward to your next post.

Dave M7040
Tomorrow morning I will start working on it again. What are some things that I should check, I want to have a list ready because theirs no internet or a cell tower near where I work on it. Also this tractor is very dirty and has a ton of grass on it so I feel that may be a factor. Thanks again!!
 

Dave_eng

Well-known member
Lifetime Member

Equipment
M7040, Nuffield 465
Oct 6, 2012
5,108
926
113
Williamstown Ontario Canada
Tomorrow morning I will start working on it again. What are some things that I should check, I want to have a list ready because theirs no internet or a cell tower near where I work on it. Also this tractor is very dirty and has a ton of grass on it so I feel that may be a factor. Thanks again!!
Tell me if it will stay running after you start it with the screwdriver.

I don't know if you have one or two problems right now.

Once I see your answer I will try and suggest what to check

Dave M7040
 

simpson1

New member

Equipment
l4240 and b1700
Feb 7, 2017
27
0
1
Iowa
Tell me if it will stay running after you start it with the screwdriver.

I don't know if you have one or two problems right now.

Once I see your answer I will try and suggest what to check

Dave M7040
It will run on its own power as long as I'm holding the key in the start position. But while the engine is running the starter isn't. A guy before thought it was only running because the starter is engaged.
 

North Idaho Wolfman

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Simple fix, you have a bad stop solenoid, or bad feed to the solenoid.

The stop solenoid has 2 coils in it, one is the pull in coil (Activated by the start circuit), the other is the hold coil activated whenever the key is in the on / run or start position, this is the coil section that is probably bad.

This is why it will run when you hold the key, (Please quit doing that as it will fry the starter and possibly damage the flywheel.)
 
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simpson1

New member

Equipment
l4240 and b1700
Feb 7, 2017
27
0
1
Iowa
Simple fix, you have a bad stop solenoid, or bad feed to the solenoid.
The stop solenoid has 2 coils in it, one is the pull in coil (Activated by the start circuit), the other is the hold coil activated whenever the key is in the on / run or start position, this is the coil section that is probably bad.
Where is that located at?
 

Dave_eng

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M7040, Nuffield 465
Oct 6, 2012
5,108
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Williamstown Ontario Canada
Great that information is very useful.

Start it and while you are holding the key in the start position, remove the small wire on the solenoid so we know the solenoid is not staying engaged and keeping the starter running. If the engine continues to run with this wire off, then the key switch is highly suspect. The reason I say this is because the engine stop solenoid should be getting power in other key positions and if it is getting power in the start position then it must be OK.

The key switch guts could be full of crud and its internal contacts not making good or reliable contact.

You could remove the ignition switch and try getting an electrical contact spray into it. You could measure the resistance between contacts in various key positions.

You have a multimeter. Turn the key to start and hold it there and measure any voltage on the wire to the starter solenoid. Do this with the wire on the solenoid and off the solenoid. If you are getting some voltage it means all the safety switches are closing their contacts but their contacts may be too dirty to pass lots of power when the solenoid is in the circuit. If that is the case we can plan an additional relay to engage the starter solenoid even with a weak signal from the safety switches.

Dave M7040
 

Dave_eng

Well-known member
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Equipment
M7040, Nuffield 465
Oct 6, 2012
5,108
926
113
Williamstown Ontario Canada
Simple fix, you have a bad stop solenoid, or bad feed to the solenoid.
The stop solenoid has 2 coils in it, one is the pull in coil (Activated by the start circuit), the other is the hold coil activated whenever the key is in the on / run or start position, this is the coil section that is probably bad.
Can you explain further as the wiring diagram shows one power wire to the solenoid and one ground. It does show two coils inside the solenoid.

I am not trying to disagree with what you are saying but to better understand what I see in the wsm's

From looking at other models stop solenoids wired the same way with one external power wire, I see Kubota uses an internal set of contacts on the pull in coil that, once it moves, cuts the pull in coil out of the circuit and the run coil continues. If the engine continues to run with the key in start, the solenoid must have moved and opened the pull in coil contacts leaving only the run coil keeping the engine running. Would that not mean the solenoid is OK and your second suggestion of the problem being in the feed to the solenoid is it.

I looked in the WSM and the one wire goes to the ignition key switch. There is a 5 amp fuse in the line but that must be OK or the solenoid would not have any power in any key position.

Dave M7040